Loud Wolf PCB Etchant?

[vigilante397]

I just started etching my own PCB boards recently - and by recently I mean about 2 hours ago - and I have a question for those that etch.

I understand ferric chloride is the most common etching solution out there, but I found Loud Wolf Limited on eBay and they sold me a bottle of non-ferric chloride etchant that is supposedly faster and more friendly than ferric chloride while still being just as effective.

I haven't actually been able to figure out what the stuff is, and while Loud Wolf claims the etching is finished in 5-15 minutes I've been waiting 35 and it's still not done. Has anybody tried this stuff?

Link:

http://www.amazon.com/Etchant-printed-circuit-boards-Powder/dp/B00IAD64GS

[vigilante397]

Loud Wolf claims the etching is finished in 5-15 minutes I've been waiting 35 and it's still not done.

Update: It's been a full hour now, still nothing.

[Jdansti]

I haven't tried it, but just wanted to note that there is no information about what's actually in the bottle. A web search turned up nothing on the ingredients. I like to know what I'm handling. The bottle does say "ultra pure chemical" and "corrosive". Ultra pure chemical makes me feel that they're talking down to me. I'm sure they're just trying to protect the secret ingredient. They do say that it works better when heated. So does ferric chloride. I usually fill a container with hot tap water, place the board in a ziplock baggie, and add about 2 or 3 tablespoons of ferric chloride solution to the baggie. I immerse the baggie for about 10 minutes and then rub the board through the baggie. Within another 5 minutes I'm done, and I've only used a small amount of etchant. Other people use warm ferric chloride and a sponge.

[slacker]

Ask them to provide you with a datasheet for the product, this should list the active ingredients, at least then you'll know what it is. If they won't give you this info I'd think about getting rid of it as you've got no idea what it is or how safe it is. You've obviously also got the problem that as you don't know what it is you don't know how to dispose of it, do they give any instructions on how to dispose of the waste? That might give an indication of what it is.

[deadastronaut]

sounds moody to me...

stick with ferric. 

[Dave W]

stick with ferric. 

+1

[KazooMan]

I looked around but couldn't find anything on this product.  My guess is that it is sodium (or ammonium) persulfate.  All of the information provided points to that.  I have used persulfate quite a bit and have found that it goes better if you make it much more concentrated and you really do need to heat it.  Given those caveats, it does the job and doesn't make the ferric chloride mess.  A friend put me on to the sponge method for etching with ferric chloride.  It uses a lot less etchant and works very well.  Wear good gloves!

One thing about the persulfate method.  I usually use the toner transfer method, but have occasionally used photoresist stock with great results.  The instructions indicate that this is incompatible with the persulfate due to the pH of the solution.  I haven't verified that for myself.

[duck_arse]

+1 ammonium persulphate. I don't remember its correct use, but ferric chloride MUST be agitated (or its sponge equivalent), or it does nothing. you did agitate yr stuff, yes?

ships from the usa? amazon? how does this stuff get transported about the us with NO chemical contents listed, or safety instructions? litigation!

[Gus]

I would not use anything like this without looking at the MSDS. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_safety_data_sheet

ships from the usa? amazon? how does this stuff get transported about the us with NO chemical contents listed, or safety instructions? litigation!

The above quote Is a very good point

[KazooMan]

I should have noted that the persulfate solution has no odor, unlike the hydrochloric acid smell of the ferric chloride.  It is also really mild and brief skin contact has no effect.  Do not get it on colored clothing or you will have white polka dots.

If I am dipping and not using a sponge I usually etch my boards in one of the small disposable plastic storage containers with a snap on lid that you get at the grocery store.  I have a sink in my shop area and I put about an inch or so of hot water in and then float the tank.   An occasional shake and perhaps replacing the hot water is all there is to it.  The etching solution gets stored in the plastic tub for reuse.

[vigilante397]

I did agitate it, though I forgot that they did mention heating speeds it up. I can see it's starting to work, but it has been 14 hours. I'll try heating it up and see how it goes.

They said to dispose of it just mix it with baking soda and dillute with water.

I didn't pay much for it so if I get rid of it in favor of ferric chloride I won't feel like I'm wasting a lot of money. But it's definitely sketchy that it ships from the US to the US with no problem despite no real information on it.

[newperson]

don't forget to submit a review.  it might save someone else some troubles. 

[vigilante397]

don't forget to submit a review.  it might save someone else some troubles. 

I think I will.

So after letting it sit with little results for 16 hours I heated it up, and it made a little bit of a difference. But I decided I'm going to try again with it hot from the beginning. On my 16 hour board there were still some spots that were supposed to be etched that weren't, and there were some spots where the etchant started eating at the toner and getting the copper underneath. Needless to say I'm not going to waste my time drilling and wiring that board. I'll let everyone know how it goes on the new run, but if it goes about the same as the first then I will definitely be writing a review.

[CodeMonk]

I haven't tried it, but just wanted to note that there is no information about what's actually in the bottle. A web search turned up nothing on the ingredients. I like to know what I'm handling. The bottle does say "ultra pure chemical" and "corrosive". Ultra pure chemical makes me feel that they're talking down to me. I'm sure they're just trying to protect the secret ingredient. They do say that it works better when heated. So does ferric chloride. I usually fill a container with hot tap water, place the board in a ziplock baggie, and add about 2 or 3 tablespoons of ferric chloride solution to the baggie. I immerse the baggie for about 10 minutes and then rub the board through the baggie. Within another 5 minutes I'm done, and I've only used a small amount of etchant. Other people use warm ferric chloride and a sponge.

Yeah, that sounds like a bunch of BS to me (From the vendor, not from you John).
If I am going to be handling ANY chemical, I want to know EXACTLY what it is.
So both a datasheet and the MSDS are an absolute must if they want me to buy their chemical.
If they don't want to tell you whats in it, I wouldn't touch it. PERIOD.
Its like that company is begging for a lawsuit. With NEON signs. On a busy freeway. During "Rush hour".

If I were you, I wouldn't use it anymore, demand money back since it doesn't seem to work, and get some ferric chloride or Hydrogen Peroxide/Muratic Acid or any of the other etching chemicals mentioned on this forum.

[deadastronaut]

16 hours..

wtf..

[samhay]

+1 ammonium persulphate. I don't remember its correct use, but ferric chloride MUST be agitated (or its sponge equivalent), or it does nothing. you did agitate yr stuff, yes?

ships from the usa? amazon? how does this stuff get transported about the us with NO chemical contents listed, or safety instructions? litigation!

Alternatively, the etchant might be an acid/peroxide mixture, which is also colourless and can probably ship without too much documentation. The peroxide would certainly cause it to bleach any coloured clothing you happened to splash it on, and neutralising it with baking soda will make it fairly harmless.

In either case, it doesn't mater how friendly they are in the bottle, once they have dissolved copper in them, they need to be disposed of properly - not down the drain.

Edit - does it have a fairly short use-by date on it?

[vigilante397]

Edit - does it have a fairly short use-by date on it?

It doesn't have a use by date on it at all. Picture the least amount of information you could expect on a bottle and it's less than that.

16 hours..

wtf..

Indeed. I just tried again, this time keeping the temperature above what they recommended and using a higher concentration than the bottle says (the seller's description says the ratio is "flexible") and the results were significantly better. It still took an hour for a 2" x 2" board, not the 5-15 minutes promised, and 3/4 of the bottle are gone leaving me with only one usable board. So did it work? I concede that it did. Will I ever buy from Loud Wolf again? I very seriously doubt it.

Perhaps when school lets out in a month or so I'm sure I'll try this again with ferric chloride, but I believe for now it's back to the vero board builds for me.

[deadastronaut]

yep, the ferric will be 10-15 minutes...its a dead cert.

[duck_arse]

vigilante - when you say school, do you mean like with a science teacher type school? maybe he could run some tests, chemistry wise.

[therecordingart]

They are selling a corrosive chemical that "potentially" will eat through metal, but they don't actually tell you what it is or provide MSDS. I'm pretty sure that is illegal, and if it isn't illegal it should be. What happens if you or someone in your household were to accidentally ingest it or get it in their eyes. You have no idea what it is.

EDIT: This is a hazardous material that is illegal to air ship without proper documentation. This is a potential lawsuit waiting to happen.