Loud Wolf PCB Etchant?

[vigilante397]

vigilante - when you say school, do you mean like with a science teacher type school? maybe he could run some tests, chemistry wise.

There probably are facilities at the school to run chemical tests on it, but I'm studying electrical engineering so I have no idea where the chemistry department is located

I did however find out that we have an industrial laser machine for cutting circuit boards, so as long as I have permission (or if no one is around) I may not need the ferric after all 

[therecordingart]

vigilante - when you say school, do you mean like with a science teacher type school? maybe he could run some tests, chemistry wise.

There probably are facilities at the school to run chemical tests on it, but I'm studying electrical engineering so I have no idea where the chemistry department is located

I did however find out that we have an industrial laser machine for cutting circuit boards, so as long as I have permission (or if no one is around) I may not need the ferric after all 

To be an honest...I'd dispose of it and purchase a chemical that is labeled correctly and has an MSDS associated. MG Chemicals makes a few different types of etchants other than ferric. Sodium and ammonium persulfate come to mind.

[davent]

Muriatic acid and hydrogen peroxide from the hardware and drug store.

[Jdansti]

It's been a long time since I've shipped anything hazardous under 10,000 lbs, but they could probably get away with providing the proper hazardous shipping information on the outer package and shipping it by ground.  They could probably call it a solid oxidizer without listing the exact chemical name.

[xixiviii]

don't forget to submit a review.  it might save someone else some troubles. 

I second this suggestion - based on the provided info I probably would've bought it if I had stumbled across it . 

Don't let it get you down, PCB etching is a pretty rewarding experience in my opinion.

I buy boring old SHIELD ME Ferric Chloride at Fry's for $10 -- Easy Button since it's only a few minutes away.

[darron]

I did however find out that we have an industrial laser machine for cutting circuit boards, so as long as I have permission (or if no one is around) I may not need the ferric after all 

As far as I ever knew lasers couldn't be used for probing CB. The problem I knew so far is that if you have the power to cut the copper then it goes right through the fibreglass. Also, most lasers use copper in their mirrors because of its reflective qualities in the used wavelengths.

Might be some new technology. That would be super easy! You'd need to revise the artwork though.

I use a co2 laser (doesn't scratch metal) just got make the etch mask with paint, but it seems like you've got the step covered if it lasted al that time in the etchant.

What a rip though! I agree with what everyone has said, you need an accessible MSDS or at least information to give to a doctor in a bad situation. Hearing it would probably have been the trick, which I found in my earlier days of ammonium persulphate. A small air pump from an aquarium is a cheap and effective agitator.

Please don't feel discouraged! I remember my first etches sounded exactly the same. Maybe get some good old FC

[vigilante397]

I

I did however find out that we have an industrial laser machine for cutting circuit boards, so as long as I have permission (or if no one is around) I may not need the ferric after all 

As far as I ever knew lasers couldn't be used for probing CB. The problem I knew so far is that if you have the power to cut the copper then it goes right through the fibreglass. Also, most lasers use copper in their mirrors because of its reflective qualities in the used wavelengths.

I'm not really sure, but that's what seems to be happening. There are two machines there, I will take pictures of them tomorrow and put them up.

don't forget to submit a review.  it might save someone else some troubles. 

I second this suggestion - based on the provided info I probably would've bought it if I had stumbled across it . 

Just left a detailed review of my experience with it on Amazon. Hopefully I can save someone else the trouble, or potentially even harm or injury. I honestly have no idea what's in this bottle 

[Jdansti]

Just read your review. BTW-click on the Loud Wolf name and you'll see a ton of different chemicals that they sell on Amazon.

[vigilante397]

I did however find out that we have an industrial laser machine for cutting circuit boards, so as long as I have permission (or if no one is around) I may not need the ferric after all 

As far as I ever knew lasers couldn't be used for probing CB. The problem I knew so far is that if you have the power to cut the copper then it goes right through the fibreglass. Also, most lasers use copper in their mirrors because of its reflective qualities in the used wavelengths.

Might be some new technology. That would be super easy! You'd need to revise the artwork though.

I'm at school now and I just got pictures of the machines. I guess the main reasons I assumed it was: A) It's technology I don't understand, which usually means lasers, and B) one of the machines says "Laser & Electronics" on it

But these are the machines:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gm4e4afkwaliy5l/2014-03-18_08-40-32_929.jpg

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lmgrq8l3gxt08sh/2014-03-18_08-40-44_707.jpg

Anyone know anything about them, including how to use them? I'm not in the upper-level classes where they start to use them yet, but if I look like I know what I'm doing no one will stop me   

[darron]

they looks like CNC routers. someone will need to show you. you'll usually make a .CAD file




the main difference that i was hinting at is that you'll need different artwork. the CNC usually won't just "print" large areas, it cuts thin lines to separate areas. a quick google search as an example:






so you'll usually have large areas of copper left which get made into your earth. having that much earth can be good to stop noises bleeding across.


so you probably won'y be able to easily just use a PDF off the net, a bit of tailoring is required. once you're setup thought you can chew through a heap really quickly with some very reliable results

[CodeMonk]

Oh man....
You all see this on the Amazon page of that crap?

"Q: Why don't you provide the MSDS or what the chemical is. Isn't it illegal to ship hazardous materials without documentation?
A: This product is a multipart formula and is designed to be not particularly hazardous, but as with all chemicals care should be taken to avoid exposure."

Talk about tap dancing around an issue.
I dunno, but for some reason that just really pisses me off.
Remind me to NEVER buy anything from them. EVER.

[darron]

multipart formula

hydrogen peroxide solution and hydrochloric acid?   

[samhay]

multipart formula

hydrogen peroxide solution and hydrochloric acid?   

That's what I initally thought (or something like it) but it comes in powder form, which pretty much rules both of those ingredients out.

I suspect it may be sodium or ammonium persulfate (which incidently is usually used at ~1:4 ratio).

[darron]

multipart formula

hydrogen peroxide solution and hydrochloric acid?   

That's what I initally thought (or something like it) but it comes in powder form, which pretty much rules both of those ingredients out.

I suspect it may be sodium or ammonium persulfate (which incidently is usually used at ~1:4 ratio).

White-ish powder?

[samhay]

^White-ish powder?

According to wikipedia, the appearance of:
sodium persulfate is a white powder.
ammonium perfulfate is white to yellowish crystals (whitish powder).

Either of them can be used to etch copper. In both cases, you may notice that the etching solution slowly turns blue after use.
I'm not sure, but ammonium persulfate may release some ammonia gas while it is etching.

[Jdansti]

Not to side with the manufacturer, but to try to shed some light (or more confusion) on a confusing subject, there is a spider web of regulations that the manufacturer could fall under, and there are many facets as to what is applicable to a given situation. Add to that the massive number of exemptions, and it requires an expert to figure out whether this manufacturer is violating a law or not.

Having said that, what is reasonable in terms of notifying one's customers of hazards is different. In other words, we would like to think that a reputable manufacturer would want to notify his customers of hazards above and beyond the law just because it's the right thing to do.

MSDSs are part of the OSHA regulations (Title 29CFR1910) that apply to employers and may not necessarily apply to consumer products. However, it's possible that this etchant could be used by an employer and therefore the MSDS regulations might apply. (I'm not an attorney and could be wrong about all of this. ). MSDSs are suppose to be provided upon request. It would be interesting to see what would happen if someone were to request the MSDS for this product.

Another set of regulations pertains to consumer safety under Title 16CFR. I'm not as familiar with this Title, but here's a link for those who are bored with reading the phone book and would like something else equally as enthralling to read: http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=3438247c612db4c45c12803a3d51635c&c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title16/16cfrv2_02.tpl

As for the MSDS regulations under Title 29CFR1910 (https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=standards&p_id=10099), here are some excerpts:

1910.1200(g)
Safety data sheets.
Chemical manufacturers and importers shall obtain or develop a safety data sheet for each hazardous chemical they produce or import. Employers shall have a safety data sheet in the workplace for each hazardous chemical which they use.

1910.1200(g)(2)
The chemical manufacturer or importer preparing the safety data sheet shall ensure that it is in English (although the employers may maintain copies in other languages as well), and includes at least the following section numbers and headings, and associated information under each heading, in the order listed (See Appendix D to § 1910.1200—Safety Data Sheets, for the specific content of each section of the safety data sheet):

1910.1200(g)(2)(i)
Section 1, Identification;

1910.1200(g)(2)(ii)
Section 2, Hazard(s) identification;

1910.1200(g)(2)(iii)
Section 3, Composition/information on ingredients;

1910.1200(g)(2)(iv)
Section 4, First-aid measures;

1910.1200(g)(2)(v)
Section 5, Fire-fighting measures;

1910.1200(g)(2)(vi)
Section 6, Accidental release measures;

1910.1200(g)(2)(vii)
Section 7, Handling and storage;

1910.1200(g)(2)(viii)
Section 8, Exposure controls/personal protection;

1910.1200(g)(2)(ix)
Section 9, Physical and chemical properties;

1910.1200(g)(2)(x)
Section 10, Stability and reactivity;

1910.1200(g)(2)(xi)
Section 11, Toxicological information;

1910.1200(g)(2)(xii)
Section 12, Ecological information;

1910.1200(g)(2)(xiii)
Section 13, Disposal considerations;

1910.1200(g)(2)(xiv)
Section 14, Transport information;

1910.1200(g)(2)(xv)
Section 15, Regulatory information; and

1910.1200(g)(2)(xvi)
Section 16, Other information, including date of preparation or last revision.
[...]

1910.1200(g)(6)(iv)
The chemical manufacturer or importer shall also provide distributors or employers with a safety data sheet upon request.
-----
1910.1200(i)
Trade secrets.

1910.1200(i)(1)
The chemical manufacturer, importer, or employer may withhold the specific chemical identity, including the chemical name, other specific identification of a hazardous chemical, or the exact percentage (concentration) of the substance in a mixture, from the safety data sheet, provided that:

1910.1200(i)(1)(i)
The claim that the information withheld is a trade secret can be supported;

1910.1200(i)(1)(ii)
Information contained in the safety data sheet concerning the properties and effects of the hazardous chemical is disclosed;
[...]

[duck_arse]

how fast will this "stuff" etch open a can, containing, say, worms?

[vigilante397]

how fast will this "stuff" etch open a can, containing, say, worms?

Apparently less time than it takes to etch a 2" x 2" circuit board

[therecordingart]

Oh man....
You all see this on the Amazon page of that crap?

"Q: Why don't you provide the MSDS or what the chemical is. Isn't it illegal to ship hazardous materials without documentation?
A: This product is a multipart formula and is designed to be not particularly hazardous, but as with all chemicals care should be taken to avoid exposure."

Talk about tap dancing around an issue.
I dunno, but for some reason that just really pisses me off.
Remind me to NEVER buy anything from them. EVER.

This was me. My response to them was "When you mix it with water it will eat through metal. This isn't a benign substance. If I get this in my eye or if my kid accidently ingests it...what do I tell the hospital this is?". I don't care if it is baking soda...it's irresponsible to sell a product without disclosure and even more irresponsible to have unlabeled chemicals in a household.

[therecordingart]

Not to side with the manufacturer, but to try to shed some light (or more confusion) on a confusing subject, there is a spider web of regulations that the manufacturer could fall under, and there are many facets as to what is applicable to a given situation. Add to that the massive number of exemptions, and it requires an expert to figure out whether this manufacturer is violating a law or not.

Having said that, what is reasonable in terms of notifying one's customers of hazards is different. In other words, we would like to think that a reputable manufacturer would want to notify his customers of hazards above and beyond the law just because it's the right thing to do.

MSDSs are part of the OSHA regulations (Title 29CFR1910) that apply to employers and may not necessarily apply to consumer products. However, it's possible that this etchant could be used by an employer and therefore the MSDS regulations might apply. (I'm not an attorney and could be wrong about all of this. ). MSDSs are suppose to be provided upon request. It would be interesting to see what would happen if someone were to request the MSDS for this product.

Another set of regulations pertains to consumer safety under Title 16CFR. I'm not as familiar with this Title, but here's a link for those who are bored with reading the phone book and would like something else equally as enthralling to read: http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=3438247c612db4c45c12803a3d51635c&c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title16/16cfrv2_02.tpl

As for the MSDS regulations under Title 29CFR1910 (https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=standards&p_id=10099), here are some excerpts:

1910.1200(g)
Safety data sheets.
Chemical manufacturers and importers shall obtain or develop a safety data sheet for each hazardous chemical they produce or import. Employers shall have a safety data sheet in the workplace for each hazardous chemical which they use.

1910.1200(g)(2)
The chemical manufacturer or importer preparing the safety data sheet shall ensure that it is in English (although the employers may maintain copies in other languages as well), and includes at least the following section numbers and headings, and associated information under each heading, in the order listed (See Appendix D to § 1910.1200—Safety Data Sheets, for the specific content of each section of the safety data sheet):

1910.1200(g)(2)(i)
Section 1, Identification;

1910.1200(g)(2)(ii)
Section 2, Hazard(s) identification;

1910.1200(g)(2)(iii)
Section 3, Composition/information on ingredients;

1910.1200(g)(2)(iv)
Section 4, First-aid measures;

1910.1200(g)(2)(v)
Section 5, Fire-fighting measures;

1910.1200(g)(2)(vi)
Section 6, Accidental release measures;

1910.1200(g)(2)(vii)
Section 7, Handling and storage;

1910.1200(g)(2)(viii)
Section 8, Exposure controls/personal protection;

1910.1200(g)(2)(ix)
Section 9, Physical and chemical properties;

1910.1200(g)(2)(x)
Section 10, Stability and reactivity;

1910.1200(g)(2)(xi)
Section 11, Toxicological information;

1910.1200(g)(2)(xii)
Section 12, Ecological information;

1910.1200(g)(2)(xiii)
Section 13, Disposal considerations;

1910.1200(g)(2)(xiv)
Section 14, Transport information;

1910.1200(g)(2)(xv)
Section 15, Regulatory information; and

1910.1200(g)(2)(xvi)
Section 16, Other information, including date of preparation or last revision.
[...]

1910.1200(g)(6)(iv)
The chemical manufacturer or importer shall also provide distributors or employers with a safety data sheet upon request.
-----
1910.1200(i)
Trade secrets.

1910.1200(i)(1)
The chemical manufacturer, importer, or employer may withhold the specific chemical identity, including the chemical name, other specific identification of a hazardous chemical, or the exact percentage (concentration) of the substance in a mixture, from the safety data sheet, provided that:

1910.1200(i)(1)(i)
The claim that the information withheld is a trade secret can be supported;

1910.1200(i)(1)(ii)
Information contained in the safety data sheet concerning the properties and effects of the hazardous chemical is disclosed;
[...]

Is it legal to sell a toxic substance without labeling it as such? Is it legal to sell a toxic substance that doesn't provide what you need to tell poison control should it accidently be ingested? I don't know about the rest of the world, but I'm guessing that's a "No" in the U.S. and possibly the EU.