Loud Wolf PCB Etchant?

[vigilante397]

Oh man....
You all see this on the Amazon page of that crap?

"Q: Why don't you provide the MSDS or what the chemical is. Isn't it illegal to ship hazardous materials without documentation?
A: This product is a multipart formula and is designed to be not particularly hazardous, but as with all chemicals care should be taken to avoid exposure."

Talk about tap dancing around an issue.
I dunno, but for some reason that just really pisses me off.
Remind me to NEVER buy anything from them. EVER.

This was me. My response to them was "When you mix it with water it will eat through metal. This isn't a benign substance. If I get this in my eye or if my kid accidently ingests it...what do I tell the hospital this is?". I don't care if it is baking soda...it's irresponsible to sell a product without disclosure and even more irresponsible to have unlabeled chemicals in a household.

An excellent point. I sent them an email asking for more information on what exactly it is they sold me and have yet to receive a response. Sketchy stuff 

[Jdansti]

>Is it legal to sell a toxic substance without labeling it as such?
The "corrosive" labeling on the bottle might legally cover this.

>Is it legal to sell a toxic substance that doesn't provide what you need to tell poison control should it accidently be ingested?
Good question. I don't know. It might be possible that Loud Wolf has registered this product with poison control. I don't think that the word "corrosive" alone is sufficient to tell medical personnel how to treat ingestion of the etchant because both acids and bases can be labeled corrosive. The question as you raised is is it legal? Maybe a call to poison control could yield an answer.

I have a couple of comments on Loud Wolf's response. First is they say that the etchant is a "multipart formula", which means that there is more than one ingredient. Second, they're still using weasel words when they say "...designed to be not particularly hazardous". In my 30 years of working in laboratories and on hazardous waste cleanup sites, I've never ever come across "not particularly hazardous" as a way for a manufacturer to describe chemical hazards.

[darron]

I work in an industry in Australia where we need to carry an MSDS for EVERY chemical by law (for work safe).

If you go to a hardware shop here they're not obligated to supply consumers with an MSDS, largely because you're buying a small quantity. once you start getting around 4LITRES (a gallon? get metric guys) they MUST supply one.

also, for the safety of the working staff they MUST have one on hand - that doesn't mean they actually do

also, as a customer, they MUST technically supply you with an MSDS if you request one on the spot for any chemical product you buy - again, doesn't mean they do.

and MSDS must be in-date and reviewed (i think every 5 years?) as medical advise gets revised from time to time.

[Jdansti]

^I think the labor laws are similar in the US. I'm just not sure what consumer labeling laws are.

[Govmnt_Lacky]

I believe, at the VERY least, that they MUST supply you with an MSDS upon demanding one. If you dont ask, and it is small quantity, then they do not have to supply one.

Also... just a comment on the "not particularly hazardous" statement. The ONLY thing that I would label as that would be WATER! And even THAT has an MSDS 

[vigilante397]

I believe, at the VERY least, that they MUST supply you with an MSDS upon demanding one. If you dont ask, and it is small quantity, then they do not have to supply one.

Also... just a comment on the "not particularly hazardous" statement. The ONLY thing that I would label as that would be WATER! And even THAT has an MSDS 

So I requested the MSDS via email and I finally got a response:

"Hello It is surprisingly mild No chlorine, no fumes no toxic gasses produced, The formulas main component is Ammonium Persulphate, with surfactants and buffers.  It uses a completely different chemistry to Ferric Chloride, I no longer use ferric chloride at all. This is just more pleasant to use."

Didn't entirely answer my question, but did confirm guesses about the active ingredient. Still pretty sketchy and I'm probably not going to use what I have left. Anyone want it? It'll probably ship no problem

[Dave W]

http://www.ch.ntu.edu.tw/~genchem99/msds/exp26/water.pdf     

[darron]

http://www.ch.ntu.edu.tw/~genchem99/msds/exp26/water.pdf     

I hope they no animal testing was involved... I got some of that stuff in my eye once and I had to flush it out!

[Jdansti]

^Water: LD50/LC50: Oral, rat: LD50 = >90 mL/kg;
This means that 50% of rats in a study die when fed >90ml per kg of body weight. This demonstrates that all chemicals, including water have a dose that is considered toxic. The inverse is also true: all chemicals have a dose at which they are considered safe.

Another example is phenol. The USEPA says "Phenol is considered to be quite toxic to humans via oral exposure."(http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/hlthef/phenol.html)  You wouldn't want to put that stuff in your mouth, would you?  Well you have if you've ever used Chloroseptic throat spray. It contains 1.4% phenol! (http://www.chloraseptic.com/sore-throat-medicine/sore-throat-spray/cherry/ >click on Drug Facts) The "poison" is in the amount of the dose.

Edit: When I worked in labs, we had MSDSs for water and NaCl (table salt). The recommended personal protective equipment for both was goggles.

[Jdansti]

I believe, at the VERY least, that they MUST supply you with an MSDS upon demanding one. If you dont ask, and it is small quantity, then they do not have to supply one.

Also... just a comment on the "not particularly hazardous" statement. The ONLY thing that I would label as that would be WATER! And even THAT has an MSDS 

So I requested the MSDS via email and I finally got a response:

"Hello It is surprisingly mild No chlorine, no fumes no toxic gasses produced, The formulas main component is Ammonium Persulphate, with surfactants and buffers.  It uses a completely different chemistry to Ferric Chloride, I no longer use ferric chloride at all. This is just more pleasant to use."

Didn't entirely answer my question, but did confirm guesses about the active ingredient. Still pretty sketchy and I'm probably not going to use what I have left. Anyone want it? It'll probably ship no problem

So that was your MSDS! Surprisingly mild and more pleasant to use. Sounds like a new brand of beer! 

[vigilante397]

I believe, at the VERY least, that they MUST supply you with an MSDS upon demanding one. If you dont ask, and it is small quantity, then they do not have to supply one.

Also... just a comment on the "not particularly hazardous" statement. The ONLY thing that I would label as that would be WATER! And even THAT has an MSDS 

So I requested the MSDS via email and I finally got a response:

"Hello It is surprisingly mild No chlorine, no fumes no toxic gasses produced, The formulas main component is Ammonium Persulphate, with surfactants and buffers.  It uses a completely different chemistry to Ferric Chloride, I no longer use ferric chloride at all. This is just more pleasant to use."

Didn't entirely answer my question, but did confirm guesses about the active ingredient. Still pretty sketchy and I'm probably not going to use what I have left. Anyone want it? It'll probably ship no problem

So that was your MSDS! Surprisingly mild and more pleasant to use. Sounds like a new brand of beer! 

Definitely not the most detailed of MSDS's, especially compared to the one for water, which I thoroughly enjoyed 

Now the real question ... is there an MSDS for beer?

[Jdansti]

^ Similar to the etchant's MSDS:  Tasty and pleasant to use!   

[CodeMonk]

"Its an etchant AND a desert topping!".

"The formulas main component is Ammonium Persulphate, with surfactants and buffers".

That still doesn't say all of whats in it.
A surfactant could be something as simple as laundry soap.
Buffers? Not a clue there.

He's still not giving you a valid MSDS.

Maybe I'm just overly cynical, but this "Professor Fullwood" seems to be all kinds of flaky.
If my dick was on fire, I wouldn't buy a glass of water from him.

And wouldn't a "multipart formula" normally be called a compound by those "in the know"?.

Or should I just put my tin foil hat on now? 

[samhay]

A buffer is something that tries to stop the pH changing. They are generally fairly benign, but not usually something you should put in your mouth in any real quantity. Likewise with the surfactants. The buffer and surfactant agents could probably be considered a trade secret, so it may be reasonable for the supplier to withhold this information.
Ammonium persulfate is a fairly common etching alternative to ferric chloride. It is an irritant - but then almost anything can be an irritant - and there are plenty of MSDS for it floating around.

Edit - The supplier may not have to supply an MSDS for this specific blend of compounds. Rather, separate MSDSs for each hazardous component may be sufficient (I'm not sure how the US legislation works).

[italianguy63]

This is just more pleasant to use

Translation:  Ineffective.

[CodeMonk]

A buffer is something that tries to stop the pH changing. They are generally fairly benign, but not usually something you should put in your mouth in any real quantity. Likewise with the surfactants. The buffer and surfactant agents could probably be considered a trade secret, so it may be reasonable for the supplier to withhold this information.
Ammonium persulfate is a fairly common etching alternative to ferric chloride. It is an irritant - but then almost anything can be an irritant - and there are plenty of MSDS for it floating around.

Edit - The supplier may not have to supply an MSDS for this specific blend of compounds. Rather, separate MSDSs for each hazardous component may be sufficient (I'm not sure how the US legislation works).

Thanks for that info
When I hear "Buffers" I think of something entirely different (The same thing as many here I'm sure    ).

As far as I know, its required, at least in a work environment, to have an MSDS for damn near every chemical/material that may or may not be hazardous.
As far as companies that sell said items, I am pretty sure an MSDS is required to be sent to a customer should it be requested. In the US anyway.
Shipping via USPS is another issue (There web site is pretty vague on this though).
Some of the stuff I have used over the years required me to wear a disposable HAZMAT suit (Wear it once, dispose of it when done for the day).
As far as trade secrets when it comes to a blend of certain chemicals, I can understand that, but I still have a problem with it.
Changing the ratios of some compounds could be the difference between "Its getting warm" to "Oh @#$% its on fire".

Maybe I am seeing this from a different perspective than others. I'm VERY VERY anal when it comes to working with that kind of stuff, cause I have had to do it so often.

And like I said earlier, this company/person seems a bit flaky or doesn't have a clue as to what it is they are actually dealing with from a hazardous or legal perspective.
I just don't trust them.

[Jdansti]

+1

[italianguy63]

I definitely agree.

+1

[therecordingart]

I believe, at the VERY least, that they MUST supply you with an MSDS upon demanding one. If you dont ask, and it is small quantity, then they do not have to supply one.

Also... just a comment on the "not particularly hazardous" statement. The ONLY thing that I would label as that would be WATER! And even THAT has an MSDS  

So I requested the MSDS via email and I finally got a response:

"Hello It is surprisingly mild No chlorine, no fumes no toxic gasses produced, The formulas main component is Ammonium Persulphate, with surfactants and buffers.  It uses a completely different chemistry to Ferric Chloride, I no longer use ferric chloride at all. This is just more pleasant to use."

Didn't entirely answer my question, but did confirm guesses about the active ingredient. Still pretty sketchy and I'm probably not going to use what I have left. Anyone want it? It'll probably ship no problem

Something doesn't smell right. My guess is they are buying "off the shelf" ammonium persulfate and selling it in smaller quantities that have a cheaper bottom line, but are more expensive per ounce. They are then putting their label on the bottle and calling it a proprietary chemistry so they don't have to expose that they are just repackaging/reselling.

[Jdansti]

The proprietary part is probably because of the surfactants and buffer. The surfactant is probably to lower the surface tension of the solution so that it wets the board better, and the buffer is probably to make it "more pleasant to use".