Overdrive recommendation please - some particulars

[blackieNYC]

I've searched this about as many ways as I can. Still not there. 
I'm looking for an overdrive that has a broad range of subtle OD, right down to a clean sound (without dropping below unity of course).
9v operation.  I want one that can do this overdrive "in the box", not by pushing the next pedal.  Probably for unity gain use but it will need gain to make up for the cleanness adjustment or the output tone control loss. The maxed out OD capability of it is not too important to me.  I'd make use of that, and would want the max to sound "somewhat obviously overdriven" but I don't wish to have my "subtle range" all within a small part of the pot adjustment. Might not be first in the chain, so interaction with guitar p'ups and controls isn't important.    Output tone control not required nor refused.  Same for input tone control I suppose.  FETs , BJTs, mosfets, op amps - whatever's clever.  An OD control and some form of level control.
I don't want to make you think I'm looking for something very neutral - character is also welcome.

(If the BSIAB2 is best, I'll take the forum's word for it - it's just that none of the YouTube demos dial up a cleaner sound.  Everyone seems to just rock out, which makes me think it is not for me. The SHO reads well, but I think I need an OD control and a output level control )

[sajy_ho]

You may take a look at this: http://www.hexeguitar.com/diy-twst_e
I've built several OD pedals and most of them need to saturate another stage(like a tube) to sound good, but this one is my favorite, wide range from clean boost to a tubish overdrive sound. very similar to ACDC tone.

[thelonious]

I know a number of people who use the Morning Glory (modded Bluesbreaker) as their low-gain, always-on pedal for adding complexity and bite to their sound. I'm not sure how close the stock MG gets to totally clean, since I've modded mine out the wazoo, but it might be worth building on tagboard to try out (http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/2013/05/jhs-morning-glory.html). You could tune it to your tastes by changing input/output/tone control caps, using the stock bluesbreaker presence control instead of MG bright switch, and playing with clipping diodes and configurations until you find one you like.

[GGBB]

I have no specific experience with the Morning Glory, but I'll second the Bluesbreaker.  Very tweakable, lots of range, and quite good run clean.  You can add a boost switch, a bright/warm switch, external presence - lots of mods available.  The BSIAB2 is flat out distortion with tons of gain, not what I would call overdrive.

[blackieNYC]

You may take a look at this: http://www.hexeguitar.com/diy-twst_e
I've built several OD pedals and most of them need to saturate another stage(like a tube) to sound good, but this one is my favorite, wide range from clean boost to a tubish overdrive sound. very similar to ACDC tone.

The Night Train? - there's a video demo on that page where I see the guy turn the gain down to minimum, and it still sounds pretty distorted to me.  Is there something they aren't doing in the demo?  Not clean enough for me. Thanks though.  Nice buncha pedals there.

[aron]

>I'm looking for an overdrive that has a broad range of subtle OD, right down to a clean sound (without dropping below unity of course).

I do this every night with my Shaka pedal. Hey it was good enough to impress Los Lobos! I mainly use the volume control on my guitar all night.

[blackieNYC]

>I'm looking for an overdrive that has a broad range of subtle OD, right down to a clean sound (without dropping below unity of course).

I do this every night with my Shaka pedal. Hey it was good enough to impress Los Lobos! I mainly use the volume control on my guitar all night.

Thanks Aron - which Shaka are we talking about?

[nocentelli]

I've searched this about as many ways as I can. Still not there. 
I'm looking for an overdrive that has a broad range of subtle OD, right down to a clean sound (without dropping below unity of course).

Timmy.

[midwayfair]

Runoff Groove has several great amp-in-a-box pedals. All three of these will do clean or overdriven and have a lot of output if you need it.

Brittania (Vox sound):

1776 carries a PCB for that.

Azabache (Fender sound -- and my favorite OD):

TH Custom carries a PCB.

Supreaux Deux (Supro 16T, VERY close):

I think TH Custom also carries this one, and there have been a few other licensed PCB runs -- there was a recent one done on BYOC, too.

For Marshally sounds, their Thor has also gotten some good reviews, and some people seem to like it as much or more than the BSIAB. I haven't built that one though because me an Marshalls don't really get along.

Also, I just posted a project that is similar in some ways to their projects, with a really broad range of overdrive. This one imposes less tone shaping on the final sound and is more of a blank slate, kind of like a small tweed, but the dynamic range is extremely wide:

[sajy_ho]

The Night Train? - there's a video demo on that page where I see the guy turn the gain down to minimum, and it still sounds pretty distorted to me.  Is there something they aren't doing in the demo?  Not clean enough for me. Thanks though.  Nice buncha pedals there.

Yeah, the night train. That video you're saying is from the first schematic (the pdf file); but if you look carefully, you'll see an UPDATED SCHEMATIC that has lower gain. Trust me, I've built that schem using below link and it's comletely clean as long as the gain pot passes 10 o'clock.
http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/2013/02/hexe-night-train.html

[Mark Hammer]

My sense is that what Allan/Blackie is looking for will ultimately be something with several cascaded gain stages, possibly 3 or more.

Keep in mind that clipping stages will invariably contribute a lot of upper harmonic content that people don't want.  So the compensating strategy is to gather some lower-order harmonic content from each of several successive stages, but filter out the higher-order harmonics.  In this way, the increase in lower-order harmonics at the final output can provide a sense of coloration, and a little more growl, but without the annoying fizz and sizzle.

Of course, that's but one sort of tone, and the desired goal is to be able to get that AND something more intense, as well as things in between, or even less intense.  So I think that we will not only be looking at multiple cascaded stages, but something that uses some sort of selectable filtering on each or at least two of those stages.

[Gus]

I've searched this about as many ways as I can. Still not there.  
I'm looking for an overdrive that has a broad range of subtle OD, right down to a clean sound (without dropping below unity of course).
9v operation.  I want one that can do this overdrive "in the box", not by pushing the next pedal.  Probably for unity gain use but it will need gain to make up for the cleanness adjustment or the output tone control loss. The maxed out OD capability of it is not too important to me.  I'd make use of that, and would want the max to sound "somewhat obviously overdriven" but I don't wish to have my "subtle range" all within a small part of the pot adjustment. Might not be first in the chain, so interaction with guitar p'ups and controls isn't important.    Output tone control not required nor refused.  Same for input tone control I suppose.  FETs , BJTs, mosfets, op amps - whatever's clever.  An OD control and some form of level control.
I don't want to make you think I'm looking for something very neutral - character is also welcome.

(If the BSIAB2 is best, I'll take the forum's word for it - it's just that none of the YouTube demos dial up a cleaner sound.  Everyone seems to just rock out, which makes me think it is not for me. The SHO reads well, but I think I need an OD control and a output level control )

Unless you define what you mean by overdrive and what you want you will get posts of what others like

Do you mean   EQ  and/or boost and/or  distortion?

Where in the chain matters

If you define what you want you could cut and paste a circuit

You should search some more there are a number of overdrives at this forum and on the web.  Maybe you should build a few to learn what you like.

[blackieNYC]

Gus- more clarification then.  
No Eq.  A gain control that is clean (perhaps sounding completely bypassed) ranging up to ACDC (great example) and perhaps a little beyond. I realize that distortion/ overdrive ( I don't actually know the difference) is a matter of threshold regardless of the technique employed - transistors, op amps, diodes.  I have made a Fetzer, and there was something I liked about that slight distortion. It lacks adjustability of course.
I will breadboard first of course.  I think the azerbache and the snowday sound like they do the job in the demos. The Timmy seems to be a common means of doing what i want. The snowday uses the voltage doubler power supply, which I thought I would avoid just to narrow the field, but it seems like I should not. . I can try the night train as well.  I'm surprised ODs are so complex, but that's what Mark is talking about.  Mark, is your idea in order to achieve very slight clipping in a number of ways rather than a gain pot which is clean, clean, then bam- ZZ top.   I've seen you speak of this somewhere before - have something in mind?
The chain - this OD would probably be early, I just want to say that it won't necessarily be first.  I don't need fuzz-like gtr interaction, and I will probably have something in front of it. At unity gain.
I probably could cut and paste.  Input buffer, gain stage, diode shunt or crossover, perhaps some of those AMZ diode clipping stages and warp controls. Maybe a Stupidly Wonderful between each stage.  But I just figured most people on this forum have something to do this adjustable mild distortion thing for them.  I've only built a couple things, all weird, with a couple Escobedos on deck. With this one I'm aiming for smooth, musical, subtle, yet adjustable.

[allesz]

Hey blackie, breadboard this: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=106170.0

Super simple and super unoriginal, but it does the job nice with little effort, and no tone control too.
At low gain it's almost completely clean, unless you hit it with really hot pick ups or with a booster/overdrive.

btw, I have you tried some of Gus's super simple overdrives, maybe with a diode clipping option for dirtier sounds: I am always amazed by the amount of good sounds you can get from a single transistor.

[samhay]

If you take a Tube Screamer-type OD and remove the resistor* in series with the drive pot, you will get unity gain at minimum drive. This will only clip if the input is overdriven. You will likely get more headroom this way relative to using e.g. a FET.

* e.g. The 51k resistor here: http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/tstech/tsxtech.htm

[Mark Hammer]

Gus- more clarification then.  
No Eq.  A gain control that is clean (perhaps sounding completely bypassed) ranging up to ACDC (great example) and perhaps a little beyond. I realize that distortion/ overdrive ( I don't actually know the difference) is a matter of threshold regardless of the technique employed - transistors, op amps, diodes.  I have made a Fetzer, and there was something I liked about that slight distortion. It lacks adjustability of course.
I will breadboard first of course.  I think the azerbache and the snowday sound like they do the job in the demos. The Timmy seems to be a common means of doing what i want. The snowday uses the voltage doubler power supply, which I thought I would avoid just to narrow the field, but it seems like I should not. . I can try the night train as well.  I'm surprised ODs are so complex, but that's what Mark is talking about.  Mark, is your idea in order to achieve very slight clipping in a number of ways rather than a gain pot which is clean, clean, then bam- ZZ top.   I've seen you speak of this somewhere before - have something in mind?
The chain - this OD would probably be early, I just want to say that it won't necessarily be first.  I don't need fuzz-like gtr interaction, and I will probably have something in front of it. At unity gain.
I probably could cut and paste.  Input buffer, gain stage, diode shunt or crossover, perhaps some of those AMZ diode clipping stages and warp controls. Maybe a Stupidly Wonderful between each stage.  But I just figured most people on this forum have something to do this adjustable mild distortion thing for them.  I've only built a couple things, all weird, with a couple Escobedos on deck. With this one I'm aiming for smooth, musical, subtle, yet adjustable.

One of the reasons why so many will end up recommending something that conforms to the general topology of the Bluesbreaker - with tweaks - is because the nifty gain pot in that design changes the gain of two stages simultaneously.  The circuit uses two inverting op-amps in series.  Since the gain of the inverting op-amp is given by the ratio of the feedback resistance to the input resistance, the BB gain pot increases the feedback resistance of Stage 1 as it reduces the input resistance of Stage 2.  VERY clever IMHO.  The Analogman King of Tone uses a very similar circuit, albeit with some tonal tweaks, and yields some very nice sounds.

Maybe what you want is something like that circuit, perhaps with some diodes, and suitable cap choice, in the feedback loop of both stages.  Because gain is multiplicative, some lower forward-voltage diodes in the feedback loop of Stage 1, and some combination with a higher forward voltage in Stage 2, would be appropriate.  When the Gain is turned down, there should be insufficient gain in Stage 1 to result in any clipping except on peaks. 

As the Gain gets increased, there should be several things going on.  First, you start to introduce clipping in Stage 2 (Stage 1 gain x Stage 2 gain brings the signal more consistently up to the clipping threshold of the diode complement in Stage 2), and then you start to get more clipping in Stage 1 and Stage 2.  And because the gain of Stage 1 is being dictated by its feedback resistance, AND the high-freq rolloff of that stage depends on the cap and feedback resistance, you are also rolling off more highs in that stage, such that there is less upper harmonic content moving from Stage 1 to Stage 2.

The classic Bluesbreaker circuit uses a 100k Gain pot and 47pf feedback cap in Stage 1, and no feedback cap in Stage 2, preferring to manage all treble content post-clipping with the Tone control.  If that Stage 1 cap were 390pf, your rolloff would commence around 4.1khz at max gain.  A 470pf value would bring it down to 3.4khz.  Add a 150pf feedback cap to Stage 2, and you'd get a rolloff around 4.8khz there.  With Stage 1 gain at min, that singular treble-cut (Stage 1's treble-cut would be largely absent) would not be quite so noticeable.  Once Stage 1 gain goes up, though, more treble is shaved off, and ought to compensate for whatever upper harmonics are being added by the double clipping.

That is, IF you decide that op-amps and diodes is a sound you like.  As well, the modus operandi here is to deliver something that can provide a broad range of tones with just three knobs.

[tca]

You could try Arsenio's tube sound overdrive (long forgotten), and add a input pot to control the drive (or see Night Train schematic).

[blackieNYC]

Mark - is the Azabache doing what you describe? http://www.runoffgroove.com/azabache.html And would your idea roll off the highs when clean, or is the concept that as the gain pot is turned up, it starts to become part of an rc filter which increasingly shaves off highs at the op amp output? And I could get a little gain, if well designed, while staying under the clipping point of the diodes.  

And - all, what about those single transistor boosters?  They get a little dirty, in a good way. I think I managed to attenuate the Tillman or a fetzer at some point, but I was looking for something very clean at the time and dropped it. I know very little about this stuff but I'm a little surprised that the recommendations aren't very simple.  Not afraid of the big build, just sayin'.

[Mark Hammer]

Mark - is the Azabache doing what you describe? http://www.runoffgroove.com/azabache.html And would your idea roll off the highs when clean, or is the concept that as the gain pot is turned up, it starts to become part of an rc filter which increasingly shaves off highs at the op amp output? And I could get a little gain, if well designed, while staying under the clipping point of the diodes. 

From the looks of the drawing, yes, although perhaps the 150pf caps would need to be a little larger, or maybe just progressively larger.

The idea I was trying to convey earlier was that greater bandwidth is attained at low gain, and treble shaved off as gain is increased, the same way it is with the TS-9.