So when will we move beyond the PT2399?

[Mark Hammer]

I'll preface this by stating explicitly that I have no major complaints about this Princeton chip.  For the things we have learned to do with it, it does an admirable job at very low cost.  Heck, staggeringly good, compared to what we used to pay a small fortune for, and lug around, 30 years ago.  So hats off to Princeton Technologies.

But the gap between what it does, or can be persuaded to do, and what end-users long for, is clearly there.  10-bit delta-modulation (though it might be 12, and I'm confusing the PTC and Holtek chips) yields pretty decent audio quality, with the right filtering, but not the 24-bit/96khz quality we are quickly treating as boilerplate.  When it came out, having 44k DRAM on board was a big deal.  But, c'mon, I can get cheap USB sticks with 32gig in a tiny space.  Surely at least a couple of meg of storage space could be packed into a 14-pin DIP or SMD chip, and give it a capacity of a couple of seconds.  And surely it wouldn't be impossible to jack up the resolution by a couple of bits.

Given the number of manufacturers that already produce budget delays using the PT2399, it would seem that there is a market out there. They probably wouldn't even have to ditch their machined and legended chassis; just change the specs from 400-600msec delay up to, say, 5sec, with maybe a toggle to select between short, medium, and long delay range.

And though such a chip would be a little pricey, at first, who among us would NOT be willing to pay $4-10 for a single-chip solution that would deliver a few seconds of delay with the simple addition of a small handful of external components?

Is it time...for more time?

[armdnrdy]

Here, Here!

I say now that we have Mark to lead us...we should slam our beer steins down on the table, get out of this cellar, raise our swords and banners and march on Princeton Technology!

Yes my friends...the time has come for a change!

Give me longer delay...or give me death!

[sajy_ho]

Very good point Mark, It's been a while since I've been thinking about other possible chips and maybe a new design!
How about this one:http://www.synthdiy.com/show/?id=872
Has anybody tried it before?

[armdnrdy]

Very good point Mark, It's been a while since I've been thinking about other possible chips and maybe a new design!
How about this one:http://www.synthdiy.com/show/?id=872
Has anybody tried it before?

That design is almost straight out of the data sheet. I'm sure that Mark will agree that there are much better uses for the MN3011.

STD-1 based design perhaps?

[Scruffie]

Very good point Mark, It's been a while since I've been thinking about other possible chips and maybe a new design!
How about this one:http://www.synthdiy.com/show/?id=872
Has anybody tried it before?

That design is almost straight out of the data sheet. I'm sure that Mark will agree that there are much better uses for the MN3011.

STD-1 based design perhaps?

The STD-1 is probably one of the better uses for the MN3011, as far as reverb goes the belton bricks cover that nicely, especially as there's the new model now.

[armdnrdy]

The STD-1 is probably one of the better uses for the MN3011, as far as reverb goes the belton bricks cover that nicely, especially as there's the new model now.

My thoughts exactly.

Maybe we could start a request/suggestion/petition sort of thread to send off to Princeton Technology.

I've had good luck with that sort of thing in the past. I contacted Cool Audio to suggest they start making/stocking vactrols.
You know that they actually did! I was very surprised when I read the email.

Unfortunately, the pricing was through the roof for even large quantities and they have a very large dollar amount minimum.

But....it's worth a try.

[pinkjimiphoton]

2399's suck. yeah, i said it. sure, they're cool, sure they're useful, but they're a major pain in the ass, and they latch up and burn out and stick on and all kinds of stupid crap.

i got a pair of each of these to play with for after i move. probably nothing special, but NOT 2399

http://www.cbtricks.com/radios/galaxy/datasheets/ic/pdf/es56028.pdf


http://ic.wwbj.net/pdf/ES56033.pdf

[SmoothAction]

I personally love the pt2399, but I agree with everything Mark said. Its been stretched to extremes and if an "updated" version came out it would sell like mad. A lot of fun can be had with those chips, pt2399 based circuits are some of the funnest to breadboard and tinker with. Like j201s you should buy in bulk to overcome the lack of consistency, but man... We have a plethora of high quality opamp flavors to choose from, yet only one option of delay chip.

A same pinout, stable, higher fidelity drop-in replacement would be a hit. No question.

Edit - there is more than one option to achieve delay I shouldve said. The PT is cheap as hell, I'd gladly buy a drop in replacement if it were better, even if it did cost 10 bucks instead of 1 buck.

Edit 2 - Need to get familiarized with the Spin FV-1.

[Mark Hammer]

I don't think they "suck", but comes a time when you gotta put down the kiddie shorts, and put on the "big boy" pants.  And I think we've been dickering around with the PT2399 for long enough now that we're ready for the big boy pants of delay chips.

I'm sure it will come.  What I am less sure about is whether it will come in a form that is hobbyist-friendly, or only in a miniature SMD form that places like Behringer or other Chinese jobbers can use.

[commathe]

Princeton likely have no incentive to update the PT2399 and make a replacement for it. Stompboxes are probably not the biggest market for their chip.

A company called Coolaudio are making cheap, smaller footprint copies of 3 of the MN series BBD chips (1024, 2048 and 4096 stage). They also make a bunch of other very interesting (and cheap!) chips, like a vactrol that is only $2.20 a piece! Big drawback though: Minimum order of $2000 - which explains why I have seen no hobby suppliers stocking them yet. Apparently the Ibanez Echo Shifter is Coolaudio based, and it seems like a fairly decent pedal.

If 96kHz/24bit is desired then I think the only option is a dedicated DSP chip. I wonder what options there are for the DIYer though? I don't know much about DSP chips. I don't know if a cheap one with built in dac/adc is available in a DIP package. Seems unlikely

[Digital Larry]

If 96kHz/24bit is desired then I think the only option is a dedicated DSP chip. I wonder what options there are for the DIYer though? I don't know much about DSP chips. I don't know if a cheap one with built in dac/adc is available in a DIP package. Seems unlikely

FV-1 does 1 second at 32 kHz, built in DAC/ADC, SOIC, so it is possible to hand solder.  It's not 96kHz/24 bit though I think you'd probably not notice for the most part.

[boogietone]

Where do you all get your PT2399's from?

[commathe]

If 96kHz/24bit is desired then I think the only option is a dedicated DSP chip. I wonder what options there are for the DIYer though? I don't know much about DSP chips. I don't know if a cheap one with built in dac/adc is available in a DIP package. Seems unlikely

FV-1 does 1 second at 32 kHz, built in DAC/ADC, SOIC, so it is possible to hand solder.  It's not 96kHz/24 bit though I think you'd probably not notice for the most part.

Thanks for this! I have been quite interested in dsp, but haven't known where to go for a beginner. I'll be looking into the FV-1 for sure!

[aballen]

Mark.  Have you thought of simply inquiring in to princetons roadmap?  They probably don't have one for this chip/technology, but asking about it would be a great way of letting them know there is a market for a next gen chip.

[Digital Larry]

FV-1 does 1 second at 32 kHz, built in DAC/ADC, SOIC, so it is possible to hand solder.  It's not 96kHz/24 bit though I think you'd probably not notice for the most part.

Thanks for this! I have been quite interested in dsp, but haven't known where to go for a beginner. I'll be looking into the FV-1 for sure!

If you'll pardon a brief foray into self-promotion, I have been working on a software application for a little over a year that makes developing certain types of algorithms for the FV-1 vastly easier.  The program, SpinCAD Designer, is free (so far) and it is also open-source, so there's a possibility that other people will expand it beyond even what I have imagined (or have time to imagine).  It has some limitations and bugs, but I'm still actively developing it, so the more people who appear interested, the more time I will probably devote to it.

[armdnrdy]

Have you thought of simply inquiring in to princetons roadmap?  They probably don't have one for this chip/technology, but asking about it would be a great way of letting them know there is a market for a next gen chip.

Maybe we could start a request/suggestion/petition sort of thread to send off to Princeton Technology.

I've found that the best way to get things done is to plant a seed.

I wouldn't imagine that anyone in a decision making position at Princeton Technology is a member of our forum or monitors what would create a demand in the DIY or factory produced stompbox industry.

The general consensus at Princeton may be that everyone is satisfied with the delay amount attainable from a PT2399.

On the same note...do you think that Cool Audio knows that if they reproduced the SAD1024 they would sell boxcars full of them?
Or how about the MN30XX series? Maybe they just don't know.

It is my opinion that some of the stompbox industry has become complacent, and builds inferior product compared to what was available years ago. They are sluffing this stuff off on the "new generation" of musicians who don't know the difference because they have never played through quality designs.

You do remember the "all in one" digital pedal boards right? Players would purchase these things thinking that they were getting more bang for the buck, only to find that they really couldn't get the sounds on their parents' records with these things.

I would imagine that the big "back to analog" push began out of necessity/demand. In my opinion, the best way to emulate a sound is to use what was used!

So....in closing...If you really want something...sometimes you have to demand it! 

At Digital Larry,

Count me in as interested!

[commathe]

The Coolaudio chips are the MN30xx ones. Specifically the MN3004, MN3005, MN3007. They also have a copy of one of the clock drivers but I am not sure which one that is. Personally, I'd like to see them add a 256 or 128 for flange and reverb effects, but I guess the 512 is short enough. I know the Way Huge pedals use them, so I assume that means that the modern MXR Carbon Copys also do. I'll bet that most modern analog delays made by companies large enough to order from Coolaudio will be using their chips. I wouldn't be surprised to see them inside the Moogerfooger and Minifooger delays for instance.

If you'll pardon a brief foray into self-promotion, I have been working on a software application for a little over a year that makes developing certain types of algorithms for the FV-1 vastly easier.  The program, SpinCAD Designer, is free (so far) and it is also open-source, so there's a possibility that other people will expand it beyond even what I have imagined (or have time to imagine).  It has some limitations and bugs, but I'm still actively developing it, so the more people who appear interested, the more time I will probably devote to it.

I have stumbled across your site before! I am a bit of a fan. I wish you all the best with SpinCAD. I will definitely be trying it out when I make the plunge into using the FV-1

[Scruffie]

The Coolaudio chips are the MN30xx ones. Specifically the MN3004, MN3005, MN3007. They also have a copy of one of the clock drivers but I am not sure which one that is. Personally, I'd like to see them add a 256 or 128 for flange and reverb effects, but I guess the 512 is short enough. I know the Way Huge pedals use them, so I assume that means that the modern Carbon Copys also do. I'll bet that most modern analog delays made by companies large enough to order from Coolaudio will be using their chips. I wouldn't be surprised to see them inside the Moogerfooger and Minifooger delays for instance.

If you'll pardon a brief foray into self-promotion, I have been working on a software application for a little over a year that makes developing certain types of algorithms for the FV-1 vastly easier.  The program, SpinCAD Designer, is free (so far) and it is also open-source, so there's a possibility that other people will expand it beyond even what I have imagined (or have time to imagine).  It has some limitations and bugs, but I'm still actively developing it, so the more people who appear interested, the more time I will probably devote to it.

I have stumbled across your site before! I am a bit of a fan. I wish you all the best with SpinCAD. I will definitely be trying it out when I make the plunge into using the FV-1

They're the MN32XX not MN30XX which is the low voltage version with less head room, people prefer the higher voltage series of P-Channel FET chips.

Currently they do not offer the 3204 to the general public but I believe they make it for the MXR pedals that use it, I have contacted Smallbear about the possibility of getting some but they may be doing it exclusively for MXR under license.

Way Huge, the Carbon Copy and EHX Memory Toys/Boys all use the Beilling produced BL3208 chips, the cool audio ones do seem to suffer from some production issues, at least regards the v3205.

I think they have been asked about producing the 30XX chips before and said no, I would think if this was achievable for any reasonable amount of money EHX would have already done it for the memory man as they have struggled to source the 3005s needed for their deluxe memory man TT 1s model and they certainly have bigger purchasing power than most.

Also if MXR paid to have the 3204 produced exclusively for their 117 & micro flangers, i'd assume the SAD chips originally used were not an option and there was some reason they didn't get the 3004 made considering the 117 is still 18V yet use a 10V max chip.

[commathe]

My bad, I didn't realise they were the MN32xx. I also assumed all the Way Huge effects used them since the Echo Puss definietely does (but I don't own an Aqua Puss or a Supa Puss).

Also, I didn't even know about the existance of the Belling chips, though that's an awesome find for me because I live in China and a quick search shows I can pick them up cheap. Their website blows though and only lists a BL3207. Would you happen to know what other chips they make so I can search?

[Scruffie]

My bad, I didn't realise they were the MN32xx. I also assumed all the Way Huge effects used them since the Echo Puss definietely does (but I don't own an Aqua Puss or a Supa Puss).

Also, I didn't even know about the existance of the Belling chips, though that's an awesome find for me because I live in China and a quick search shows I can pick them up cheap. Their website blows though and only lists a BL3207. Would you happen to know what other chips they make so I can search?

They DID make the BL3208A & B used by all those producers but for some reason they stopped production recently, I assume all those manufacturers purchased enough end of life supply to last a while though and now they'll either stop production of analog delays when they dry up, move on to the cool audio alternatives or perhaps fund a new production of chips... but i'm not holding out hope for that.

A major issue is the DIY market and even the pedal market is quite small, probably not as much money in it as they'd like.