Phenolic Copper Clad Board

[mikitz]

So I purchased  a phenolic copper clad board for super cheap from taydaelectronics.com .... after some research I discovered this stuff is very toxic and will slowly leach phenols/formaldehyde into the air over its lifetime. Has anyone ever used it? Do people seal it so the phenols can't escape? Shellac? Clear spraypaint?

Thx

[armdnrdy]

Without looking into this....I'm sure that the only thing that would have to worry about a small circuit board releasing toxins over the course of years is the (%^&*)roach that crawls in the enclosure through the input jack!

But then again....maybe not even a %^&*roach. They are very resilient and have survived millions of years through varying adverse environments.

[Mark Hammer]

Yeah.  If I worked in a warehouse that stocked the stuff, or spent my days manning a bandsaw or bench shears or drill press that cut the stuff, I'd insist on a good filter mask, fume hood, and ventilation system.  But the little amount we deal with as hobbyists likely has less impact on health than what we eat for breakfast.

[armdnrdy]

If you are worried about the levels of phenols and formaldehyde in your life....you might want to consider not eating or drinking anything as well.  

http://www.cfs.gov.hk/english/whatsnew/whatsnew_fa/files/formaldehyde.pdf

http://www.autismnti.com/images/Diet.pdf

[samhay]

You have to pick your poisons. Fibreglass dust is not particularly nice either....

[gjcamann]

I would highly recommend against sealing your PCB.

According to wikipedia, phenolic doesn't actually leach formaldehyde over time, it's that over time high energy mojo neutrinos displace the formaldehyde ions, and in some cases, boutique pedal builders have been known to age their carbon comp resistors and PCB's in vats of mojo for weeks or even months prior to production.

If you're not feeling well after prolonged use of pheonilic pedals, it's usually not formaldehyde poising, but mojo deprivation occurring, in that case you may want to start sealing you PCB's to prevent them from absorbing any more mojo, and you should of course goto ebay straight away for mojo supplements in the form of out of production lovetone pedals.

[R.G.]

ARGGHHHH!! The universe is falling! The universe is falling!

One side effect of the earth/natural/green/environmental movement has been that there are remarkably few things in existence that are viewed as not being either deadly dangerous in an acute manner or a slow, insidious poison. I get tired of it.

Just like the boy who cried "Wolf!", we as a society are in terrible danger wasting our fight-or-flight adrenaline on trivia. Yet we have convinced a couple of generations now that any or all substances may suddenly be found to be deadly dangers, and made them accept each new layer of warnings as the absolute truth. Worse, no logical discourse on the topic can be made because that is [in the eyes of the tinfoil-hat brigade at least] damning evidence of a coverup.

The sad fact is that before people discovered all the new techno-poisons, people lived, on average, MUCH shorter lives. It was all natural back in the time of the Greeks and Egyptians, right? No better living through chemistry then, right. Nope, they died of the good, old fashioned causes - disease, injury, and malnutrition - on average in their 40s.

[armdnrdy]

It is a common occurrence while watching the news (if you can stand to) when something that was "great for you" has just been found to cause cancer!

"New studies have just revealed that, bla bla bla bla bla"

Then in two years...it turns back around with another study! 

"What once was thought to cause, bla bla bla bla bla"

I say eat a bunch of red meat, drink liberally, and have a good time while you're here...because chances are....you're not coming back

[Jdansti]

I'll guarantee that putting gasoline/petrol in your car one time exposes you to 100,000 times higher concentrations of toxic volatile chemicals than having 100 phenolic circuit boards in your house.

The general rule of toxicology states that "the poison is in the dose".  In other words, when considering the toxicity of a compound, you have to consider the dose that one is exposed to. Being exposed to high concentrations of phenol could be acutely lethal, yet phenol is sold as a drug in Chloroseptic throat spray. How is this?  The dose in the throat spray is low enough to be therapeutic and not toxic. The dose of volatile compounds one would receive from working with a phenolic board under "hobbyist conditions" is well under the toxic dose.

I believe that the main reason that phenolic boards are not considered RoHS compliant is because the high temperatures of solder reflow ovens would cause off gassing. For hobby use, though, there should be no problem. Relax and have fun!

[R.G.]

It is a common occurrence while watching the news (if you can stand to) when something that was "great for you" has just been found to cause cancer!
"New studies have just revealed that, bla bla bla bla bla"
Then in two years...it turns back around with another study! 
"What once was thought to cause, bla bla bla bla bla"

There's a good joke from the era of Finding That Everything Causes Death.

A man walks into a diner and sits at the counter. The waitress comes over and says "What'll you have?"
The man replies "Gimme a cup of pancreatic cancer."
The waitress smiles and says "Do you want hypoglycemia and heart disease with that?"
To which the man says "No, just black."

The most toxic chemicals known (I just looked) is still botulism toxin, a near tie to tetanus toxin, followed closely shigella, palytoxin, diptheria toxin, and then the old standby, ricin. Note that these are all 100% naturally occurring, and *all organic*.

[Jdansti]

Curare is natural too. BTW-it has served as a medicine in low doses.

Approximately 95% of Americans who die have been exposed to water or water-containing products within 8-hours prior to their death. 

[CodeMonk]

The Earth's atmosphere is poisonous too.
It just take a much longer time to kill you.

If you are really concerned about the toxins leeching out, just use some conformal coating on your boards.
For example : http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008O9YGQI/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1535523722&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B004SPJOKK&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0E3PBNRJBEPJYX15HP08

Have a look for more : https://www.google.com/search?q=conformal+coating&oq=conformal+coating&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

[Tony Forestiere]

Don't sweat it. You are fine.

Approximately 95% of Americans who die have been exposed to water or water-containing products within 8-hours prior to their death. 

Absolutely shocking.  I am guessing the glass is at least half-full. 

[bluebunny]

I say eat a bunch of red meat, drink liberally, and have a good time while you're here...because chances are....you're not coming back

+1  Nice philosophy, Larry.  People say life is too short.  I say it's the longest thing you'll ever do.  Might as well maximise the fun along the way!

[duck_arse]

what's that conformal coating stuff made from?

[armdnrdy]

Here is the product safety sheet from a Dow Corning conformal coating:

http://www3.dowcorning.com/DataFiles/090007b281c87049.pdf

You know if it's made by Dow Corning....it's good to eat! It makes a good sandwich spread! 

[Mark Hammer]

I don't want to make light of the OP's query.  It's a legitimate question.

Of course, once a person is informed that a particular substance is "dangerous", without any accompanying reference to the degree and form of exposure that constitutes that danger, it is difficult to judge just how much "danger" one is in...or not in.

My wife evaluates MSDS sheets for a living ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_safety_data_sheet ), and her agency scans the biomedical research literature monthly for new research on whatever chemical compounds they regularly have to evaluate MSDSs for.  Part of that involves evaluating the relevance of the research itself.  If a study shows risk or harmful effects at levels, and via routes of administration, that are relevant to normal working conditions, then it is considered as evidence for risk/hazard.  If it's a study that observes birth defects in 5% of mice that are injected intravenously with amounts 10-20x what a worker might be exposed to over the course of a year, then it is considered to be of much less relevance, if relevant at all.  The lab research examining risks associated with industrial substances normally does not mimic work contexts very faithfully, even though attempts might be made to use realistic exposure levels.  Obviously the need for experimental control, in order to assure consistent treatment of different dosage or other conditions, has to take precedence over trying to mimic the workplace.  And although there is a voluminous clinical anecdotal literature (which she reads as well), reports of a guy who fell into a vat of something, and lay face down in it for 10 minutes, is not especially predictive of "normal" workplace exposure.  However, it is the preponderance of all forms of evidence that dictates whether something should be flagged as a potential hazard or health risk.

The guiding principle is "How much does this study tell me about potential risk to workers using this material/substance under real-world conditions, and is there a way of mitigating that risk?".  The information gleaned from that research then translates into the information found on the MSDS sheet about what precautions to take in order to work with the substance safely.  And, as time marches on, we learn more about riskier, and less risky, exposure levels/circumstances.  In some instances, the permissible levels might be raised over time, and in others they are lowered, depending upon what we learn.

[mikitz]

Thanks Mark, for answering the question with something other than an opinion. I'm not saying the sky is falling, but if I can limit the amount of toxins in my house by using an alternate product that works just as well, I'd be silly to keep using the inferior product.

[mikitz]

Just to add... I did some more hunting around and new home construction in most areas is allowed to use building materials that leach phenols/formaldehyde. To make matters worse new homes are air tight. So I guess you guys are right, the small amount of phenols in the penolic board probably won't make any difference for diy people. Thanks for entertaining my question everyone.

[CodeMonk]

what's that conformal coating stuff made from?

MG Chemicals has a bunch made from several chemicals : http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/protective-coatings/conformal/

For the record, NASA uses a 2 part epoxy. They did in the 80's anyway.
Applied with a brush, to about 1/8 - 1/4 inch thick. That was a PITA.