vero and perf and component sizes

[duck_arse]

I've got a circuit, nearly ready to do a vero for it. I've got my first perf boards coming via slow boat, something to look forward to (?). so I have some questions about other people's preferences. no prizes given, just my gratitude.

how many people here use other's published layouts only, show of hands? of you, how many won't build a particular layout if it has standing resistors? why?

next, how many here do their own vero/perf (or pcb) layouts as a matter of course? and how many of you WON'T stand resistors (unless it will save the whole layout)? not even to save a layout, or huge space?

and more still: what is your preferred pad spacing for 1/4W resistors, 0.3" or 0.4"? 0.3 has always been to much of a strain on the leg-bend to my mind, 0.4 seems to be where they bend naturally. or do you not care, just jamb them in?

does your spacing preference change from vero to perf? I've only ever done standing resistors, just because of the ease and space savings, but if no-one wants to build them, I might as well try flat laying.

[karbomusic]

how many people here use other's published layouts only, show of hands? of you, how many won't build a particular layout if it has standing resistors? why?

I've used three thus far due to time contstraints. AKA, I needed them on my pedal board sooner than I had the time to do the layout.

next, how many here do their own vero/perf (or pcb) layouts as a matter of course? and how many of you WON'T stand resistors (unless it will save the whole layout)? not even to save a layout, or huge space?

I actually prefer to do everything myself off the schematic. Breadboard, test, tweak. Then I do the layout in DIYLC until I'm happy it matches the schematic and bread board version. AKA I use both the bread board and the schematic to cross reference when doing the layout. I've found I can troubleshoot my own layouts much faster because by the time I do the breadboarding then layout, I know the circuit pretty well and will automatically see mistakes much, much quicker. As a result my last 5 builds or so worked first try (knock on wood).

and more still: what is your preferred pad spacing for 1/4W resistors, 0.3" or 0.4"? 0.3 has always been to much of a strain on the leg-bend to my mind, 0.4 seems to be where they bend naturally. or do you not care, just jamb them in?

I use vero so whatever the ones I buy come in.  

does your spacing preference change from vero to perf? I've only ever done standing resistors, just because of the ease and space savings, but if no-one wants to build them, I might as well try flat laying.

I don't do standing (I do mostly vero as a newb) unless I need to for layout reasons. I don't personally have an issue with standing other than when I do resistors I do them all at one time and if none are standing I can just place them and place blue painter's tape over top and go to town on soldering. This is easy with resistors when they are lying flat because I do my soldering via altitude aka shortest/lowest first, then IC sockets (because they are great visual references), then film caps, then electrolytic etc. Basically short to tall. Translation: when I do resistors I place them all, tape, flip over and solder them all in one go.

^ There is the hidden benefit here where on at least vero you can mop yourself into a corner placement wise, the above will call that out before I actually solder.

[drolo]

One advantage of lying resistors vs standing is that you can have traces running under them. Handy sometimes. Other than that, no issues with standing resistors, nor jumpers for that matter. I'm not really a purist, in anything... whatever works, works.

[IvIark]

next, how many here do their own vero/perf (or pcb) layouts as a matter of course? and how many of you WON'T stand resistors (unless it will save the whole layout)? not even to save a layout, or huge space?

Me!  I will never use standing resistors, firstly because I don't particularly like the way they look, and for some reason a build with all flat axial components is aesthetically pleasing to me, but the main reason is I like to stuff the board, turn it over and solder all the resistors in one go and standing resistors seriously hampers that and makes you need to stuff and solder individually.  Having done a lot of layouts I also don't really see the point in making the finished layout slightly smaller at the expense of ease of build.  13 x 8 fits in a 1590B easily, but so does 15 x 9.  I also find the links I use to avoid standing resistors are very useful around pins that require a lot of connections and allow you to move your passives to less populated areas of the board and make the best use of space.

There have been lots of instances where one or two standing resistors would have saved a lot of hair I've been tearing out, but I'd still prefer to find another option and for all the layouts I've done I've never ended up having to do it.  Also having a stash of 1/8W resistors has helped a lot by allowing 3 hole spans instead of always searching for 4.

and more still: what is your preferred pad spacing for 1/4W resistors, 0.3" or 0.4"? 0.3 has always been to much of a strain on the leg-bend to my mind, 0.4 seems to be where they bend naturally. or do you not care, just jamb them in?

The common 1/4W metal film resistors have a 6.5mm long body (I think from memory), and if I bend the leads at the very edge of the body they fit perfectly in a 4 hole span with the 2.5mm pitch vero I use.  The perf I have has the same spacing.

[Frank_NH]

Great topic!  I was hoping this discussion would emerge as I have some (limited) vero build experiences to relate.  These are probably issues most here know about and are old news.  

First, I've built 10 circuits on vero board (and boxed five of those).  My vero board has the standard 0.1" hole spacing.  I use 1/4 W resistors, box caps (mainly) along various size electrolytics (I call them the "cans") and ceramic disk types, standard diodes, and sockets for all transistors and ICs.  Here are some observations in no particular order:

* Installing sockets and row connection wires is no problem.
* However, some vero layouts have row connection wires running underneath the IC sockets.  I like to keep some insulation on these wires and some sockets just won't accommodate that...
* Most radial caps fit nicely when the lead spacing from hole to hole is 0.2" or 0.3".  Anything larger or small needs bent leads (which is a pain).
* Bending leads on components so they fit nicely on the hole spacing required in the vero layout can be annoying!  Anything (like a resistor) requiring connection to two adjacent hole has to be mounted standing.  Standing resistors aren't really a problem to install (I did this on my initial builds) but I now prefer flat mounting if possible.
* Standing components can lead to trouble if they are so tall as to be taller than your enclosure box height (don't ask me how I know this).  Again, flatter mounting is better.
* I solder potentiometer wires temporarily to the board for testing purposes then desolder/trim when I mount in the enclosure (the reason being that I want to test the circuit with my guitar/amp before I decide it's worthy of boxing).  It would be nice to maybe have a better approach than desoldering.  I haven't tried mounting pot direct to the vero (and don't prefer that approach in general).
* I have modified layouts to accommodate trimmers and larger capacitors.  Sometimes it's problematic sandwiching a large cap between two other capacitors or resistors.  

Finally, some vero layouts are designed to make the circuit board as small as possible;  but, I'd be willing to have a larger board if it meant that components were easier to install (i.e. more space around large components).

Right now, I've gotten my build process down to a couple of hours to have a populated, wired up, ready to test board.  I do a lot of board testing and retesting along the way to avoid problems like bad track cuts, cold solder joints, solder bridges, and bad components.  Still only a couple of my builds have fired up without problems the first time...(still learning)  

[IvIark]

* Bending leads on components so they fit nicely on the hole spacing required in the vero layout can be annoying!

You just need a set of these, they save me lots of time
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111353559324

[Frank_NH]

* Bending leads on components so they fit nicely on the hole spacing required in the vero layout can be annoying!

You just need a set of these, they save me lots of time
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111353559324

Nice!  I'll look into that.  I was also thinking of making a similar jig from some scrap wood or plastic...

[DrAlx]

I have always done my own vero layouts and try to make them as compact as possible without using standing resistors.
Flat resistors make soldering easier and are more aesthetically pleasing to me.
I will only use a standing resistor if the alternative leads to a much bigger use of unused board space.
For the number of holes covered by a resistor (i.e. its length) I have this preference from most to least preferred 4, 5, 6, and finally 2 (i.e. standing).
7 holes is just too long, and for some weird reason I find 3 holes (a "reclining" resistor) even more distasteful than standing because it's neither "properly" standing or flat.
I've never done a perf-board (is that pad-board?) layout but would take the same approach I do now.

I have an approach that is a bit of a combination of stripboard and padboard techniques.
i.e. I use stripboard but I only ever break the strips between holes (keeps the layout compact) and I use solder blobs to join adjacent strips where needed.
I've posted some layouts here and put a lot of work into trying to do a good one (we're talking many many hours spread over a month or so).

[IvIark]

and for some weird reason I find 3 holes (a "reclining" resistor) even more distasteful than standing because it's neither "properly" standing or flat.

I was the same, it was a minimum of 4 holes for me until I bought a pack of 1/8W resistors which will lie flat in a 3 hole span, then I started doing them sometimes in my layouts, but only if the alternative meant extra rows or columns in a board that was already getting close to the limit for the box I want to put it in.  7 holes or more is just unavoidable sometimes if you're doing bigger layouts that may have a number of transistors and/or opamps spread around the board which need interaction.

[DrAlx]

* Bending leads on components so they fit nicely on the hole spacing required in the vero layout can be annoying!

You just need a set of these, they save me lots of time
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111353559324

14 dollars!!!  That's expensive plastic.  Here's a DIY option...

http://www.instructables.com/id/NiftyBender-Deluxe-A-tool-for-the-stripboard-use/

[Frank_NH]

* Bending leads on components so they fit nicely on the hole spacing required in the vero layout can be annoying!

You just need a set of these, they save me lots of time
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111353559324

14 dollars!!!  That's expensive plastic.  Here's a DIY option...

http://www.instructables.com/id/NiftyBender-Deluxe-A-tool-for-the-stripboard-use/

Thanks - nice DIY solution.  I just noticed that Small Bear Electronics has the lead benders for a good price.  I'll probably get one there when I order more parts.

[duck_arse]

thanks for replies. Ivlark, I was especially glad to see from you. I've been tooling tonight with all flat, and it's doing my head in at the moment. I don't really want all those up, around and back style tracks and links. lucky I've now got diylayout ....

1/8W resistors. I'd say bending them for 3 holes was excess strain, like 4 holes for 1/4W. but that's me.

FrankNH, for your links under sockets, you might run a needle-file across the plastic under for some clearance. and as for stretching radial caps, that is a topic I will not even countenance. (4 is right out!)

solder blobs as connections are fine, as long as they go in the right places, and you know why they are there later on ...... mine always used to get GIANT before they would bridge, I don't do them anymore.

and as for whether long or short is easier or harder to solder, I have to feel for the leads w/ the iron anyway, just to try and find the bloody things, makes no diff to me the length.

carry on commenting, please.

[armdnrdy]

I try not to use standing resistors when physically possible. I often go through a layout, fine tune, and move things around a bit to accommodate flat lying resistors.

My preference is to produce a board to fit in the smallest enclosure possible...within reason.

One thing of note....without the use of standing resistors....many of the "small box" effects as we know them would not exist in the form that they do. Ibanez, Boss for example. 

[mth5044]

+1 for everything IvIark said. And also because I don't feel like making a standing resistor component in EAGLE.

[IvIark]

thanks for replies. Ivlark, I was especially glad to see from you. I've been tooling tonight with all flat, and it's doing my head in at the moment. I don't really want all those up, around and back style tracks and links. lucky I've now got diylayout ....

Links are a pain and can be ugly in bigger circuits when there is a lot of them but they're a necessary evil for anyone doing vero layouts, or perf layouts of course.  But I just liken it to adding vertical tracks to the board which is no different to what you have with all PCBs, and crossing tracks is no different to multilayer PCBs, albeit a less attractive and integrated way of doing it.  I used to use resistor cut offs for the links but bought a reel of 1000 links from Rapid Electronics which are basically just like longer resistor cut offs (without the sticky bits).  They're very thin and don't make anything like the visual impact than they do in the layout graphic.  On some builds I will also use 0 ohm resistors instead so it has a common look to the passives.

1/8W resistors. I'd say bending them for 3 holes was excess strain, like 4 holes for 1/4W. but that's me.

You may be right, I'm happy with it simply because I've built a lot of effects and never had a single failure because of any mechanical stresses in the passives from the way I mounted them.  And I restrict myself enough without making life even more difficult 

and as for stretching radial caps, that is a topic I will not even countenance. (4 is right out!)

Yes that's a compromise too, but I don't feel the same way about using caps in a larger span than ideal as I do about using resistors in a shorter span than ideal for a couple of reasons.  Firstly, apart from box caps when I can sometimes get away with it, I never stuff them en masse and so if I'm doing them individually there's no build disadvantage like the standing resistors.  And secondly because the body of the cap is in the same position in relation to the board whether you have a 5mm or 10mm (or whatever) pitch and so it isn't having a potentially detrimental effect on the depth required to box the board, which can be a pain sometimes with a 1590B with pots and maybe switches behind it.  I really do hate some of my older layouts though where I have radial electrolytics spanning a lot of rows like the power supply filter caps in some of the opamp based layouts.  Although to be fair I'd always use axial electrolytics for those builds, and I only showed radial because that is what most people used and it meant I would stop being asked if it was ok to use radial 

[armdnrdy]

And also because I don't feel like making a standing resistor component in EAGLE.

There are two sizes of standing resistors in the GM resistors library.

[mth5044]

Yar but the pad sizes are all f'd. I know I always say how easy EAGLE is to use and edit components, but I never mention how lazy I am 

[duck_arse]

mention it now.

[pappasmurfsharem]

The common 1/4W metal film resistors have a 6.5mm long body (I think from memory), and if I bend the leads at the very edge of the body they fit perfectly in a 4 hole span with the 2.5mm pitch vero I use.  The perf I have has the same spacing.

Is is actually 2.5mm spacing or 2.54mm?

As 2.54mm=0.1"

[IvIark]

Yeah 2.54 but i always think of round metric number for components. It's easier to think a box cap has a 5mm pitch than 5.08