Powder Coat, Wataer Slides, Clear Coat and what not, need advice!

[rudeez]

Hey!
I have recently purchased equipment for powder coating my enclosures, it's the kit from electrostatic magic in UK, i'm also using their powders which are cured at 180 degrees celcius in 10 minutes.
I do my graphics by water slide decals and so far i've tried 3 brands, chinese (crap), crafty computer paper (UK) and mrdecal.com (also UK i think).
I Craftys gets very soft and cracks easily when applied, mrdecal went on really smooth without cracks and the chinese i won't even comment....
My problem is that the decals yellows when curing the boxes and i do know that's an issue for others as well but when doing white boxes i can't have that. I guess it's not as visible on other colours.
So far i've been having issues with cracking as well and today i relaized it's most likely caused by undercuring, i bought a IR themrometer today and a BB enclosure hit about 180 degrees after around 17 minutes so that would equal to 27 minute cure.
On this particular box i made the decal of the mrdecalpaper and after a total time of 27 minutes it's very yellowish and also it has shrinken quite a bit and looks aweful, this is the 2nd box with the same graphics i destroy.
Last one had craftys paper, looked alright, altho i only baked that after the rule of thumb which is double the time so i had it in the oven for 20 mins which apperantly is to short for a BB to heat up as it started to crack the day after, even then it had a yellow tint compared to the sides.
Im using a small toaster oven and bake it in the lower section and have also put aluminium foil on the upper heatpipes as i read that on another forum and it could help avoid yellowing the decal.
I should also say that im using inkjet water slides if that matters,  i guess the base is sort of the same as laser.

I should also say that im of course clearcoating the water sldies before applying them with Motip Acrylic Clear coat, might that be the cause of yellowing or is it more likely the decal itself and the adhesive?

Now i really need advice from you guys who do this stuff as well, water slide brands, other methods of labeling and graphics etc, curing temps tips and tricks.
Any advice would be most welcome!

EDIT:

Here's samples, i just pulled that golden one out a few minutes ago after 27 minutes and same thing there, mr decal paper and it has shrinken way to much.
But as i said, i guess the only colour that would really show the yellow tint would be white, i doubt it's very visible on other colours.

[Ice-9]

I have an electrostatic magic powder coating system as well although it is the older one with the foot pedal psu, a friend of mine has the newer one and we have found that it is not as good to use for some reason, maybe just a different technique is needed.

Any way I normally silk screen print my powder coated enclosures and that's it, finished as no need to clear coat. If your putting on waterslides though I expect a clear coat is needed to protect the transfer. Again I haven't tried it but you can get a clear powder from electrostatic which can be applied as a second coat after the decal is applied. This may still yellow the decal but worth a try.

Secondly if your putting on a clear coat from a rattle can there should be no real need to bake it so you could just allow it to harden for a few days extra days maybe.

[rudeez]

I have an electrostatic magic powder coating system as well although it is the older one with the foot pedal psu, a friend of mine has the newer one and we have found that it is not as good to use for some reason, maybe just a different technique is needed.

Any way I normally silk screen print my powder coated enclosures and that's it, finished as no need to clear coat. If your putting on waterslides though I expect a clear coat is needed to protect the transfer. Again I haven't tried it but you can get a clear powder from electrostatic which can be applied as a second coat after the decal is applied. This may still yellow the decal but worth a try.

Secondly if your putting on a clear coat from a rattle can there should be no real need to bake it so you could just allow it to harden for a few days extra days maybe.

Might have been unclear haha, I am using the clear coat from electro as well, i have no issues with the gun nor any of the powders really besides the cracking but as i said it's most likely caused by undercure as i didn't realise it took about 5-7 more minutes for the enclosure to reach 180 then i expected.
So my approach so far is basically Basecoat > water slide for inkjet clearcoated with regular acrylic clear to hold the ink > applied and let dry > electrostatic clear and thats where it yellows and or cracks.
I definately would go the silk screen road but i do have alot of custom jobs and doing a screen for just one print is just way to much work.
After applying a water slide the box really need a hit of clear to protect it even if it's already cleared as the edges of it etc would be easy to harm once you step on it with shooes and such.

[davent]

There are waterslide decal films meant for ceramics, maybe those, i'd fully expect the regular's to discolour with the heat exposure.

[Tall Steve]

I'm with Ice 9 on the issue being with the heat rather than the decal. I'm certainly no expert here, having never used decals before; but, a clear decal implies some sort of plastic polymer, and plastic will shrink when you heat it. I think the yellowing probably comes from the adhesive on the back of the decal, too.

[armdnrdy]

I use water slide decals (unfortunately) on my enclosures which more often than not stay indoors.

I make pedals as gifts for a friend's son who plays outside regularly. He brought back a pedal that I made him so that I could modify it...the decal had shrunk from exposure to the sun! Not just a little....a lot! decals are better than nothing but in my opinion, for something that lasts, the only way to go would be silk screen.

[Beo]

I have an electrostatic magic powder coating system as well although it is the older one with the foot pedal psu, a friend of mine has the newer one and we have found that it is not as good to use for some reason, maybe just a different technique is needed.

Any way I normally silk screen print my powder coated enclosures and that's it, finished as no need to clear coat. If your putting on waterslides though I expect a clear coat is needed to protect the transfer. Again I haven't tried it but you can get a clear powder from electrostatic which can be applied as a second coat after the decal is applied. This may still yellow the decal but worth a try.

Secondly if your putting on a clear coat from a rattle can there should be no real need to bake it so you could just allow it to harden for a few days extra days maybe.

Any thoughts or recommendations on silk screening? Is this something that can be done at home for one-offs, or it only makes sense for production runs? I was looking at the ezscreenprint hidef kits, but I'm not sure if this is worth the investment.

http://ezscreenprint.com/EZScreenPrintBasicStarterKitHiDef.aspx

[Tall Steve]

Any thoughts or recommendations on silk screening? Is this something that can be done at home for one-offs, or it only makes sense for production runs? I was looking at the ezscreenprint hidef kits, but I'm not sure if this is worth the investment.

http://ezscreenprint.com/EZScreenPrintBasicStarterKitHiDef.aspx

I did some research into screen printing myself a while back.  The fabric inks won't cut it.  One that will work is enamel.  There's another one, too, but the name escapes me.  I think someone posted their screen printing setup and process over on madbean's forum.  Theirs is definitely production level, but it gives some insight into how to use the stronger ink.  I think its enamel that you have to use very quickly or it'll kill your screen.  As to whether or not the EZScreen is worth the investment, you probably won't get any pedals out of it.  On the other hand, it might make some bad ass posters and t-shirts. 

Hey, in fact, I retract my prior statement.  You could get pedals out of it, you would just have to screen print a sticker first and then use that on your pedal.  You may even be able to screen white ink onto a clear decal and throw that over top a dark enclosure.

[rudeez]

Silk screen would of course be the best solutions but as i said i do alot of one off pedals and therefore silk is not an option for those.
Ceramic transfers might be an idea indeed, been trying to read up on the subject since last night but not a lot wiser so far.
What does everyone else do to finish their pedals really? Any threads about it maybe?

[Ice-9]

I have an electrostatic magic powder coating system as well although it is the older one with the foot pedal psu, a friend of mine has the newer one and we have found that it is not as good to use for some reason, maybe just a different technique is needed.

Any way I normally silk screen print my powder coated enclosures and that's it, finished as no need to clear coat. If your putting on waterslides though I expect a clear coat is needed to protect the transfer. Again I haven't tried it but you can get a clear powder from electrostatic which can be applied as a second coat after the decal is applied. This may still yellow the decal but worth a try.

Secondly if your putting on a clear coat from a rattle can there should be no real need to bake it so you could just allow it to harden for a few days extra days maybe.

Any thoughts or recommendations on silk screening? Is this something that can be done at home for one-offs, or it only makes sense for production runs? I was looking at the ezscreenprint hidef kits, but I'm not sure if this is worth the investment.

http://ezscreenprint.com/EZScreenPrintBasicStarterKitHiDef.aspx

Been there and tried that, it's pretty useless stuff for our needs (EZscreenprint).

Not wanting to derail the thread as it is about  waterslide, but to the OP. I do some one off pedals and find it no trouble at all to screen print one-offs.
items used
Home made press (bit of kitchen top with a cut out to hold the pedal with 2 bought hinges screwed on).
silk Screen for putting print image on which are totally re-usable for many different images.
and the difficult bit for me was finding the correct inks for printing on pedals as mostly inks available are just t-shirt printing inks.

[rudeez]

I have an electrostatic magic powder coating system as well although it is the older one with the foot pedal psu, a friend of mine has the newer one and we have found that it is not as good to use for some reason, maybe just a different technique is needed.

Any way I normally silk screen print my powder coated enclosures and that's it, finished as no need to clear coat. If your putting on waterslides though I expect a clear coat is needed to protect the transfer. Again I haven't tried it but you can get a clear powder from electrostatic which can be applied as a second coat after the decal is applied. This may still yellow the decal but worth a try.

Secondly if your putting on a clear coat from a rattle can there should be no real need to bake it so you could just allow it to harden for a few days extra days maybe.

Any thoughts or recommendations on silk screening? Is this something that can be done at home for one-offs, or it only makes sense for production runs? I was looking at the ezscreenprint hidef kits, but I'm not sure if this is worth the investment.

http://ezscreenprint.com/EZScreenPrintBasicStarterKitHiDef.aspx

Been there and tried that, it's pretty useless stuff for our needs (EZscreenprint).

Not wanting to derail the thread as it is about  waterslide, but to the OP. I do some one off pedals and find it no trouble at all to screen print one-offs.
items used
Home made press (bit of kitchen top with a cut out to hold the pedal with 2 bought hinges screwed on).
silk Screen for putting print image on which are totally re-usable for many different images.
and the difficult bit for me was finding the correct inks for printing on pedals as mostly inks available are just t-shirt printing inks.

Would love to se some images of your setup! I've been tempted to make my own press and such as well, the time consumin part i guess would be making the screen/and cleaning it for just one pedal, also isn't it expensive to put on a news resist on the screen etc?

[karbomusic]

As far as waterslide choices, I've tried several brands. So far the ones I get from Small Bear have been the best hands down. They don't crack, I can bake them for hours, they don't shrink best I can tell. They will stretch during application if you aren't careful but that comes with the territory. Everything else I have used to date has had issues from shrinking, bubbling, etc.

[rudeez]

As far as waterslide choices, I've tried several brands. So far the ones I get from Small Bear have been the best hands down. They don't crack, I can bake them for hours, they don't shrink best I can tell. They will stretch during application if you aren't careful but that comes with the territory. Everything else I have used to date has had issues from shrinking, bubbling, etc.

Very useful info! Do they have both clear and white and have your tried baking both?
At what temperature are you baking? Been trying to google at thsi subject over the last couple of hours but it's hard finding decent info really.

[karbomusic]

As far as waterslide choices, I've tried several brands. So far the ones I get from Small Bear have been the best hands down. They don't crack, I can bake them for hours, they don't shrink best I can tell. They will stretch during application if you aren't careful but that comes with the territory. Everything else I have used to date has had issues from shrinking, bubbling, etc.

Very useful info! Do they have both clear and white and have your tried baking both?
At what temperature are you baking? Been trying to google at thsi subject over the last couple of hours but it's hard finding decent info really.

Yes, they have white and clear. I bake around 120-130F because hotter runs the risk of bubbling my gloss. However, for all I know my little 15.00 oven could be inaccurate, I just know that I consistently have fewer issues baking around that 120/130 range. Important to note that I found my ideal temperature through trial and error which is probably the case for everyone. 150F works but I have several times bubbled my gloss coating doing so, thusly I started backing down the temp until I found something I could count on.

Sometimes I go a little lower, really depends on how much time I have to wait LOL. If I'm in no real hurry I might back it down a little lower and bake an hour or two instead of 1/2 hour.

Hint: Anytime I have a concern, I'll test it on the bottom plate first, if that fails, its really easy to sand off and redo and it's not as important as the top. Sometimes, I'll test the inside of the bottom plate because I can just sand it off and be done with it.

[rudeez]

As far as waterslide choices, I've tried several brands. So far the ones I get from Small Bear have been the best hands down. They don't crack, I can bake them for hours, they don't shrink best I can tell. They will stretch during application if you aren't careful but that comes with the territory. Everything else I have used to date has had issues from shrinking, bubbling, etc.

Very useful info! Do they have both clear and white and have your tried baking both?
At what temperature are you baking? Been trying to google at thsi subject over the last couple of hours but it's hard finding decent info really.

Yes, they have white and clear. I bake around 120-130F because hotter runs the risk of bubbling my gloss. However, for all I know my little 15.00 oven could be inaccurate, I just know that I consistently have fewer issues baking around that 120/130 range. Important to note that I found my ideal temperature through trial and error which is probably the case for everyone. 150F works but I have several times bubbled my gloss coating doing so, thusly I started backing down the temp until I found something I could count on.

Sometimes I go a little lower, really depends on how much time I have to wait LOL. If I'm in no real hurry I might back it down a little lower and bake an hour or two instead of 1/2 hour.

Hint: Anytime I have a concern, I'll test it on the bottom plate first, if that fails, its really easy to sand off and redo and it's not as important as the top. Sometimes, I'll test the inside of the bottom plate because I can just sand it off and be done with it.

Good idea to use the bottom or inside of it, will definately do before killing more enclosures, they're not THAT expensive as i get big loads from china but still, shipping and waiting is a pain :p
But let me get you straight and your process, you put a basecoat on and make a full cure at full temp or a partial cure? Then you put on a water slide and let dry, put clear powder coat over and bake at low temperature for like an hour?
The clear i have need curing at 180 celcius for 10 mins after the part reached 180, that would equal to 355 fahrenheit and you say you bake as low as 120-130 fahrenheit? Would the clear really be cured during that time?

[karbomusic]

As far as waterslide choices, I've tried several brands. So far the ones I get from Small Bear have been the best hands down. They don't crack, I can bake them for hours, they don't shrink best I can tell. They will stretch during application if you aren't careful but that comes with the territory. Everything else I have used to date has had issues from shrinking, bubbling, etc.

Very useful info! Do they have both clear and white and have your tried baking both?
At what temperature are you baking? Been trying to google at thsi subject over the last couple of hours but it's hard finding decent info really.

Yes, they have white and clear. I bake around 120-130F because hotter runs the risk of bubbling my gloss. However, for all I know my little 15.00 oven could be inaccurate, I just know that I consistently have fewer issues baking around that 120/130 range. Important to note that I found my ideal temperature through trial and error which is probably the case for everyone. 150F works but I have several times bubbled my gloss coating doing so, thusly I started backing down the temp until I found something I could count on.

Sometimes I go a little lower, really depends on how much time I have to wait LOL. If I'm in no real hurry I might back it down a little lower and bake an hour or two instead of 1/2 hour.

Hint: Anytime I have a concern, I'll test it on the bottom plate first, if that fails, its really easy to sand off and redo and it's not as important as the top. Sometimes, I'll test the inside of the bottom plate because I can just sand it off and be done with it.

Good idea to use the bottom or inside of it, will definately do before killing more enclosures, they're not THAT expensive as i get big loads from china but still, shipping and waiting is a pain :p
But let me get you straight and your process, you put a basecoat on and make a full cure at full temp or a partial cure? Then you put on a water slide and let dry, put clear powder coat over and bake at low temperature for like an hour?
The clear i have need curing at 180 celcius for 10 mins after the part reached 180, that would equal to 355 fahrenheit and you say you bake as low as 120-130 fahrenheit? Would the clear really be cured during that time?

Just to be clear I don't use powder coat, just regular ole spray gloss. Sorry if I misled you, I was just commenting on waterslide decals in general.

[Tall Steve]

I have an electrostatic magic powder coating system as well although it is the older one with the foot pedal psu, a friend of mine has the newer one and we have found that it is not as good to use for some reason, maybe just a different technique is needed.

Any way I normally silk screen print my powder coated enclosures and that's it, finished as no need to clear coat. If your putting on waterslides though I expect a clear coat is needed to protect the transfer. Again I haven't tried it but you can get a clear powder from electrostatic which can be applied as a second coat after the decal is applied. This may still yellow the decal but worth a try.

Secondly if your putting on a clear coat from a rattle can there should be no real need to bake it so you could just allow it to harden for a few days extra days maybe.

Any thoughts or recommendations on silk screening? Is this something that can be done at home for one-offs, or it only makes sense for production runs? I was looking at the ezscreenprint hidef kits, but I'm not sure if this is worth the investment.

http://ezscreenprint.com/EZScreenPrintBasicStarterKitHiDef.aspx

Been there and tried that, it's pretty useless stuff for our needs (EZscreenprint).

Not wanting to derail the thread as it is about  waterslide, but to the OP. I do some one off pedals and find it no trouble at all to screen print one-offs.
items used
Home made press (bit of kitchen top with a cut out to hold the pedal with 2 bought hinges screwed on).
silk Screen for putting print image on which are totally re-usable for many different images.
and the difficult bit for me was finding the correct inks for printing on pedals as mostly inks available are just t-shirt printing inks.

Would love to se some images of your setup! I've been tempted to make my own press and such as well, the time consumin part i guess would be making the screen/and cleaning it for just one pedal, also isn't it expensive to put on a news resist on the screen etc?

Seconded :-)