Maybe this should be in bold face type

[Snufkinoob]

I've been guilty of skipping the Debugging list, but only because I haven't had a multi-meter to read each component. (yet) 

I think people here need to realise that there are going to be people who are just putting a kit together, or a really simple circuit that works, but then on a second attempt, run into problems that aren't immediately apparent, and want to rule out simple things rather than delving into the world of component values a readings etc. Yes it's lazy, I'm guilty of that, but I'll be mending my ways as it makes perfect sense to do things via the debugging list, BUT some people are inevitably going to post simple questions. The answer may be simple, "you've wired up X incorrectly", or the answer may be "you'll have to get a multi-meter and check your components" but answering with, or making snarky posts about "noobs"... come on, really? You're on a public forum, not an elitist circle of electricians.

[vigilante397]

All of the comments I've seen the previous people make on debugging threads have been gentle reminders that there is a way that things are done. Not because "EVERYONE MUST FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS OR FACE THE CONSEQUENCES," but because they are, quite simply, very good suggestions to either get the circuit working yourself or give the more experienced members of the forum (whom we are frankly lucky to have) enough information to help you get it working. I never see comments like "Wow, what a noob, you need to read this thread." The only time I see the debugging thread referenced in less than gentle words is when a member that has been around a bit longer and already made quite a few posts neglects the directions indicated in the thread.

Everyone starts out as a "noob," and we don't judge, but the fastest way to get better (in my opinion) is to follow the debugging thread.

My 2 cents

[Jdansti]

+1

It's always best to start off assuming that the person hasn't seen the debug thread.

Sometimes the bug seems simple and we try to help the person before recommending the debug thread. I don't know how many times I've recommended things like, "check your grounds", or "check the polarity of the power", etc. before recommending the debug thread.

[deadastronaut]

^ yeah, guilty as charged ...i shall behave in future..honest.

now why isn't my booster working?..the light comes on..

[armdnrdy]

I hear you John but,

How many times have you read this?

"I need some help!...I built my first guitar pedal the other day...and I plugged into it and it makes a strange sound when I turn the knob all the way up. It sort of sounds like aliens mating under water, but from a distance.

I have been through everything and I can't find the problem. I double checked all of the solder joints and part values.
Does anybody know what might be causing this?
Do you think that I may have got a bad IC." 

Then I would respond, "Okay....I see that you've built a pedal....that's very nice but....can you please tell us which one it is?
Maybe throw us a little bone so we can help you?" 

[Jdansti]

Yep. 

In that case the first response is to assume that the OP is not only a noob builder, but a noob at asking for help. Therefore the first reply should gently inform the noob of how the process works. If the noob becomes stubborn and doesn't catch on (or doesn't want to follow the process), then yeah, that's very annoying and tends to escalate negative vibes.

[deadastronaut]

very annoying and tends to escalate negative vibes.

http://www.diystompboxes.com/wiki/index.php?title=Debugging

[armdnrdy]

I believe that due to the imbalance of human and technological development, things have been made too easy for some people.
There no longer exists "survival of the fittest" or the mechanism of natural selection.
We as a people now tend to be engaged in the practice of lowering the bar or leveling the playing field.

It would be interesting to see some of the "subjects" of this experiment sent back to the Cretaceous period.

I would imagine that it would go something like this.

The individual walks out of the cave....looks up at that big, round, bright thing up in the sky and ponders once again....
Hmm.....there it is again today.....I wonder what that thing is!

Just then....a Pterodactyl swoops down, collects him up in its talons, and sweeps him away to a desolate cliff top where a nest of starving baby Pterodactyls are waiting to rip him to shreds and consume him.  

As you can see...that would not be a pretty sight so....my advice to new posters is: Check the debugging thread...and always look over your shoulder for menacing Pterodactyls!

[vigilante397]

Therefore the first reply should gently inform the noob of how the process works.

+1

(emphasis added)

[greaser_au]

I don't think anybody wants to denigrate the newbies (as opposed to the more derogatory 'n00bs') - and that was definitely NOT the thrust of my earlier post on this thread. We're a community and as such we are here to help each other learn about this game (and occasionally - with the indulgence of Aron & the team of moderators -other games that are possibly a little bit less on-topic ).

How I read it is that the annoyance is with people who will not make an effort to help themselves, or help us help them.

What I find worse than that, though (and obviously this is NOT here) are the "experts" that reply to posts without reading the thread, and their sig insists that other users leave props/thanks/TUs/reps for their generally less-than-stellar input   The Cisco support forums seem to be full of these people!

david

[tommycataus]

It's all part of the learning curve though. I ask really silly questions (I'm still quite new to this), and sometimes I find that I need to have someone else verify my thought process before I realise that the answer is in fact very obvious and I should know better.

I think it would have helped me early on to remember the debug page every time, but often it is so much easier to just ask the question. It's almost like customer service in a sense - would you prefer to look at FAQs on a website or talk to a real person? Even though the website can answer your questions, a knowledgeable person would be intuitive enough to explain it in a way that you understand.

Then it all starts to fall into place, and it becomes a habit that you check the debug list before you post a question, to the point where you almost stop posting questions because you either search and find someone with the same problem who asked the question and got it to work, or you fix it yourself by debugging (which feels so satisfying).

I'm sure I speak for many when I say that my first project was way beyond what I was capable of, because I didn't want to build a booster, I wanted a distortion pedal with three different settings and a flashing light. When I couldn't make it work I was out of my depth, and impatience/laziness/being human caused me to give up on debugging out of sheer frustration and just ask questions.

That's when you realise... this hobby is Do It Yourself. What's the point if you just get everyone in the community to think for you? I guess getting over that initial fear of the unknown is a bit of a hurdle for some. The more projects you attempt, the longer before you give in and ask for help.

A lot of you guys are highly qualified and just do this in your spare time. I wish I was. It was my dream as a kid to study electronics but it kinda went wrong for me. It makes me so happy to be able to do this now. I guess being the type of guys that ask "have you checked the pinout?" or "is there a short to ground?" makes this community what it is. Sometimes as a beginner it is easy to think you did the simple stuff right and spend HOURS looking for complicated mistakes, only to realise you soldered the positive terminal of your output cap to the vero strip adjacent to the negative one, instead of the next one over (yup, and more than once).

I think maybe I would have given up by now had it not been for the people here being so supportive and helpful. That being said, I don't think "What to do when it doesn't work" could ever stand out too much!! For everyone's sake.

Especially me.

[teemuk]

would you prefer to look at FAQs on a website or talk to a real person?

Assuming these real persons spent considerable time and effort to write extensive manuals / instructions etc. I think it's just polite to learn their content before asking them the most basic questions, basically with the intention that they refer the entire amount of information AGAIN but now customized to entirely you in short and concise format.

Asking questions only is not really "discussion" and assuming people will do work on your behalf is not really "doing it yourself".

[Luke51411]

As someone who is relatively new to the hobby I have enjoyed being able to share my knowledge on some of the simpler things the few times the question arises that I have an idea on. I also find for some stupid reason that sometimes I debug for hours to no avail only to post a stupid question and then immediately figure it out before even getting a response... I don't know why I find the miswired pot or misplaced jumper immediately after posting even though I was looking at the circuit and comparing it to the layout for hours previously. I think typing out the problem brings clarity to the situation. I'm sorry If I've posted too many dumb questions. Thanks to everyone for all the help I have received. I always like reading through debug threads even for noob type situations, it seems there is always something to learn and every once in a while I get to pass on some of my knowledge.

[anotherjim]

If you're working on your own you are going to be prone to errors. You have to accept that and learn to really question ALL your assumptions when something you're certain should be right still doesn't work.
The most powerful way to avoid error is to have someone else check it, but that's rarely an option. It's notable that many new projects posted here involve the originator asking others to verify - very, very wise.

An example of a wrong assumption causing a total fail?

The first time a used an LM386 amp some part of my brain registered it as having the same pin-out as a single opamp like 741. Despite having the 386 datasheet to hand and the correct pin numbers on my scheme, I wired the + supply to the wrong pin. I didn't see that error when I rechecked over and over again until I methodically went round every pin comparing the datasheet, my scheme and the board (That process is called Correlation). I didn't realize it sooner because my brain had the same wrong assumption firmly embedded - both when I built it and tested it.

Sometimes a split personality would be useful.

"I agree."

Shut up.

"No, you shut up...."

[deafbutpicky]

You guy are fairly optimistic. If someone doesn't even manage to read the basic debug, he will certainly not delve through this soon to be three pages of good advises.

Never the less I'll add something too: lay your cards open! It was mentioned before, and I've seen post where it was obvious OP had some lacks of basics but covered it with "I've build several ***". If you are uncertain with what you do and you know it, or if you can't corner the problem after reading the debug and followed it through it should be mentioned. Just say "I don't know how to measure voltage" or "how does an inverting OP amp work" and guidance links will follow. The hardest thing to debug is to get to know what someone doesn't know and how to speak to him in a comprehensible manner.

[karbomusic]

There is never going to be perfection here so we all need to use good judgment on who we make fun of and chastise and/or ignore or help while also referencing the debugging thread. Many who post with the questions that caused this thread are very likely under duress; their build isn't working so their normal patience, calmness, logical approach and reading slowly are going to automatically be somewhat strained until they know better.

Additionally, some who visit here aren't cut out for this and this is part of them finding out.   Others are just in a bit of a panic state, others never post here until they have a problem, which means they aren't familiar with the forum. Had they been visiting when things weren't broken they would have learned more. So there are plenty to blame but I'd think it's up to us to corral what we can, dismiss when appropriate, help when appropriate and so on. I'd think everyone should at least get one strike depending.

That being said, yes it should be in bold face type, it needs to be very distinctly visible to give that extra chance of seeing it and making the light bulb go off. Actually, make it bold, all caps and red. <-- Seriously, do.

[vigilante397]

Others never post here until they have a problem, which means they aren't familiar with the forum. Had they been visiting when things weren't broken they would have learned more.

There seem to be a lot of these here. I've learned more from reading every single thread I find interesting than I have from actually asking for help. Not that I haven't gained a great deal asking for help, but I've learned a great deal from the mistakes of others. The "Search" function tends to be remarkably helpful, especially for common circuits (Tubescreamer, Rebote, etc.) where I'm sure other people have had the same problems I have.

[karbomusic]

Others never post here until they have a problem, which means they aren't familiar with the forum. Had they been visiting when things weren't broken they would have learned more.

There seem to be a lot of these here. I've learned more from reading every single thread I find interesting than I have from actually asking for help. Not that I haven't gained a great deal asking for help, but I've learned a great deal from the mistakes of others. The "Search" function tends to be remarkably helpful, especially for common circuits (Tubescreamer, Rebote, etc.) where I'm sure other people have had the same problems I have.

True, I don't think I've posted an official debugging question to date because I read the new posts every day and when I first arrived I read as many as I could find. 99% of my issues I've found BEFORE I had a problem meaning I didn't make many common mistakes because I already knew from visiting, because I wanted to build stomp boxes, which means I should know what I'm doing, which means hang out on the forum. Rinse/Repeat. Not to mention searching for "project x doesn't work" as part of my research long before I even build LOL.

[tommycataus]

Agreed, if I didn't come here and read what is going on regularly I would have no idea about half the stuff I do now.

[midwayfair]

Others never post here until they have a problem, which means they aren't familiar with the forum. Had they been visiting when things weren't broken they would have learned more.

There seem to be a lot of these here. I've learned more from reading every single thread I find interesting than I have from actually asking for help. Not that I haven't gained a great deal asking for help, but I've learned a great deal from the mistakes of others. The "Search" function tends to be remarkably helpful, especially for common circuits (Tubescreamer, Rebote, etc.) where I'm sure other people have had the same problems I have.

Just because someone doesn't post doesn't mean they aren't reading the forum. Tons of people only lurk on forums because they don't like to hear themselves type as much as others.