Big Tube Screamer Debate

[slacker]

Let's use the power of Math! (Click the thumbnails to embiggen.)

Simulate the same circuits using transient response and increase the input signal until until they clip, there is an obvious difference. Whether or not this happens in practical use is another question.

[Mac Walker]

Is there a link to a double blind study somewhere?

Oh yeah....there's not....one's never been done.

[karbomusic]

From a big picture perspective, I don't think it would even matter if there were a correct blind test, measurement whatever. IOW, humans want perfect rules, final answers, closure, black and white results and inescapable conclusions and hard unbreakable rules. The best thing anyone can ever possibly do is be more confident in their playing than their devices and simply not worry about having a final yes/no answer. It's part of our DNA but as I get older, I'm beginning to consider that both facts and confirmation bias play their creative parts in getting things done and being human. Anyone looking for a final judgment with zero exceptions for anything involving human senses is going to often chase things with no end.

In other words, I think it's good to not chase confirmation bias as fact but I also think its good to not be too Spock like in life.

[FiveseveN]

Whether or not this happens in practical use is another question.

So what's the point then?   I mean we could simulate it with 100 V input, but wouldn't it be more relevant to at least tentatively agree on what's likely to happen in practical use first? And then we'll be stuck on the issue of how much harmonic distortion can a human detect, partiucularly when it's even order and on top of a whole lot more distortion to begin with.

I'm beginning to consider that both facts and confirmation bias play their creative parts in getting things done and being human.

Only what gets done is a general decline in critical thinking skills and its inevitable outcome: gullible people get separated from their money. I mean myths are cool and all, until you start to take them seriously.

[karbomusic]

Only what gets done is a general decline in critical thinking skills and its inevitable outcome: gullible people get separated from their money. I mean myths are cool and all, until you start to take them seriously.

People tend to have that fear of decline but I've never actually seen a true decline (or one that actually, really and truly matters) and I've never seen a guy in the soup line saying "it was the tube screamer purchase that took me down"; crack maybe.

There is a certain percentage who are going do it and always have and certain people that are going to be gullible no matter what you do. I'll posit some of them actually LIKE not knowing and the fun of talking about it true or not. I'm big on edumacation but no one is going to save anyone by proving 2 resistors in a TS make or don't make some minute difference nor is the world going to suddenly be saved from a decline to the likes of the movie Idiocracy. The person who paid top dollar for it would do it anyway and if that makes them extremely happy, then great. Both that person and the person who can't sleep because someone somewhere was told wrong should consider that far more important things abound.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not afraid to call someone out on BS, do it all the time. Just saying, "two resistors and a tube screamer" would make a better song title than debate.

[slacker]

Whether or not this happens in practical use is another question.

So what's the point then?  

Probably none it would be easy enough for someone who claims to hear a difference to hook up a scope and see if there's at least any measurable difference though. Like you say, even if you can measure it doesn't mean you can hear it.

[FiveseveN]

As I see it there are two conflicting concepts involved:
1. It's bad to sell bullsh*t.
2. You can't put a price on peace of mind or pleasure, it's decidedly subjective.
The free market's answer to this paradox is of course to provide plenty of varied products so people on both ends of the spectrum and everywhere in between can be satisfied. That's why we have $30 tube screamers and $1200 tube screamers.

And just as well there are two answers to the original question (is there a perceptible difference between the models?), depending on how you look at it:
1. Under normal circumstances, no*.
2. If you want to hear it (even unconsciously), you will.
The first answer must always include an asterisk, a caveat, a disclaimer, because
a. As was pointed out, "a TS808" and "this TS808" are different things. If we are comparing the models, we refer to some idealized form of an effect, i.e. what is written on the schematic. If we are comparing the units, one would expect some difference due to component tolerance, which may very well swamp what we're trying to measure.
b. As was also mentioned, we can contrive some conditions where even the most minute difference can become significant. Can those conditions ever arise "in the wild"? Well, it's not impossible; guitarists do strange things all the time.
The second answer is completely independent from the 1^st, that is you're gonna hear it whether it's objectively there or not.

Since related issues come up now and again, maybe a (sticky) thread with resources on cognitive biases, audio memory, audiometry, experimental methodology etc. would be welcome. So if someone wants to make a useful comparison he/she'll at least know what the common pitfalls are and prepare to avoid them.

[wavley]

I like the way the TS-808 looks better, therefore it sounds better.


End of discussion, you guys don't need to discuss this anymore because I have weighed in on the subject and the 808 definitely looks cooler.


Actually, I just gave away my TS-9 in a trade where I received 3 tube mics, 3 SM57s, and a bunch of mic stands.  Anybody want 3 tube mics, 3 SM57s, and a bunch of mic stands for your 808?

[Frank_NH]

I know this topic has been hashed out on the interwebs, but to the original posts question, here is an interesting post at TDPRI:

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/stomp-box/273322-ts9-vs-ts808-whats-difference.html

I frankly don't think the output buffer differences would affect the sound to an appreciable degree.  However, the op amp chip AND the clipping diodes certainly would.  In particular, it is suggested that the TS808 had clipping diodes with higher forward voltage that the TS9.  Given most TS clones these days give you 1001 options for clipping diodes, there could certainly be sound differences if Ibanez changed diodes.  Thoughts?

[HOTTUBES]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix3esykv9YI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtiQMimHtnY

[mremic01]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix3esykv9YI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtiQMimHtnY

But both of those videos are using two separate pedals. Not one pedal with only the components in question changed.

[FiveseveN]

And they are neither controlled nor blind. One of them is captured with a friggin camera mic, from a mile away! See, this is why we need that thread I was talking about.

[Electron Tornado]

I frankly don't think the output buffer differences would affect the sound to an appreciable degree.  However, the op amp chip AND the clipping diodes certainly would.  In particular, it is suggested that the TS808 had clipping diodes with higher forward voltage that the TS9.  Given most TS clones these days give you 1001 options for clipping diodes, there could certainly be sound differences if Ibanez changed diodes.  Thoughts?

I know the op amp issue has been cussed, discussed, and theorized upon here by many smarter than me, but I've never seen any hard data presented. Here is the closest thing I think I've seen to any kind of data regarding the op amp's effect on tone:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpTv2jAree8

I've heard the diode differences being mentioned, which could well account for a difference in tone, but I don't recall any hard numbers except by the fellow in the discussion on the TDPRI forum. I recall one discussion I read where the person said the diodes you want are "the ones with the blue stripe". I don't recall if there were any other specs or type numbers mentioned, but I do recall being struck by the emphasis on a blue stripe.

[karbomusic]

I recall one discussion I read where the person said the diodes you want are "the ones with the blue stripe". I don't recall if there were any other specs or type numbers mentioned, but I do recall being struck by the emphasis on a blue stripe.

If I were a manufacturer... "OK guys, from this moment forward, every diode gets a blue stripe, make it happen". 

[Electron Tornado]

I recall one discussion I read where the person said the diodes you want are "the ones with the blue stripe". I don't recall if there were any other specs or type numbers mentioned, but I do recall being struck by the emphasis on a blue stripe.

If I were a manufacturer... "OK guys, from this moment forward, every diode gets a blue stripe, make it happen". 

Actually, I'm a bit surprised that everybody selling their "improved" version of the Tube Screamer, or selling mods wasn't hyping their products with "Yes, we only use diodes with the coveted blue stripe."  I guess eveyone was focused on squeezing all they could out of the hype surrounding the op amp.