Banana Jack Amps: No-Solder, All-Tube Guitar Amp Kits

[Ice-9]

Yeah, I like the copper work upright version with 8 lil speakers, it looks very like the type of old electrical equipment you would find in a Frankenstein lab. Pretty cool and different.

[Jack White]

It doesn't look like the Kickstarter is going to get funded, but I'll be curious to see what he does with the idea going forward. Hopefully, he finds a way to make it safe while still meeting his general design goals.

If our Banana Jack project doesn't get funded, we've got another Kickstarter waiting in the wings; it has nothing to do with guitar amps, however, so you won't get a chance to read about it here.

But the amp project will undoubtedly come around again sooner or later. I'll probably give some thought to re-packaging the thing as a kit with a permanent case and screw-in panels, more like my Coppertone Model 101 or Model 201-B or Model 5c1 (all pictured below, the 201-B in both kit and assembled form). That would at least keep all the wiring enclosed (in a fully assembled kit) and that, in turn, would hopefully allay some of the concerns expressed here -- without sacrificing the "modular" and "no solder" aspects of the idea. (Including "no solder" on the copper pipes -- they're assembled with expanding Gorilla glue!) Of course, if we get sufficient funding this time around, that could happen sooner rather than later...

ME LIKEY!!!!!

[Gerry Rzeppa]

ME LIKEY!!!!!

Gorilla glue (in case you missed the tip) makes working with copper pipe easy.

Are those pedals painted or plated? They look plated.

[Jack White]

Gorilla glue (in case you missed the tip) makes working with copper pipe easy.

Are those pedals painted or plated? They look plated.

Plated of course, but only with copper salvaged from Popcorn Sutton's still and an original Baghdad Battery as the power source, that's what gives me the TOAN!!!

[R.G.]

Gorilla glue (in case you missed the tip) makes working with copper pipe easy.

Just curious - does Gorilla Glue produce a reliably conductive joint that will carry 25A of ground current? That's the requirement in IEC60650 for exposed conductive surfaces for AC powered devices.

[Gerry Rzeppa]

Just curious - does Gorilla Glue produce a reliably conductive joint that will carry 25A of ground current? That's the requirement in IEC60650 for exposed conductive surfaces for AC powered devices.

Don't think so. But it's okay. The frames on my Coppertone Amps are like the frame on this amp (not electrically connected to anything):



Question: Let's say a guy has an AC powered amp, and the pots in that amp have nylon shafts. As an after-market mod, he decides to put metal knobs on those shafts. Is that amp now in violation of "IEC60650 for exposed conductive surfaces for AC powered devices"?

[merlinb]

Is that amp now in violation of "IEC60650 for exposed conductive surfaces for AC powered devices"?

IEC 60650 covers "Analogue counting ratemeters. Characteristics and test methods."

[bool]

[Gerry Rzeppa]

RE: bool's Coppertone ad above. Saw that iconic image everywhere when I was kid. Everybody thought it was cute. Now it's considered child pornography (see http://www.techtimes.com/articles/9917/20140711/coppertone-girl-type-child-photo-gets-nc-mom-in-trouble-with-facebook.htm). Seems to me like something's gone wrong... Too many rules. Too much regulation. Not enough common sense.

[tombaker]

Someone should really put down that dog, I'm pretty sure that's harassment.

[nate77]

I agree with Gerry. I understand the argument about adervettised an perceived danger vs legitimate danger, when getting into something like building tube amps I believe there is a very large expectation that the purchaser is aware of the risks and assumes responsibility for him/herself. There has been a movement towards sterilizing all things and making them safe for all regardless of each persons personal responsibility for them self. I believe providing adequate warning, it is 100% the purchasers responsibility. Sueing people and various companies and depositing responsibility where convenient in attempt to nullify ones own culpability is an unfortunate trend presently. I personally don't believe in it

[Gerry Rzeppa]

I agree with Gerry. I understand the argument about adervettised an perceived danger vs legitimate danger, when getting into something like building tube amps I believe there is a very large expectation that the purchaser is aware of the risks and assumes responsibility for him/herself. There has been a movement towards sterilizing all things and making them safe for all regardless of each persons personal responsibility for them self. I believe providing adequate warning, it is 100% the purchasers responsibility. Sueing people and various companies and depositing responsibility where convenient in attempt to nullify ones own culpability is an unfortunate trend presently. I personally don't believe in it

Well said.

[R.G.]

Sueing people and various companies and depositing responsibility where convenient in attempt to nullify ones own culpability is an unfortunate trend presently. I personally don't believe in it

Sadly, the courts don't believe in your not believing in it.

I don't agree with the legal climate either, but it is what it is. Deciding that it doesn't exist is like letting go of an anvil held above your foot and deciding that you don't agree with gravity existing.

[Greenmachine]

I agree with Gerry. I understand the argument about adervettised an perceived danger vs legitimate danger, when getting into something like building tube amps I believe there is a very large expectation that the purchaser is aware of the risks and assumes responsibility for him/herself. There has been a movement towards sterilizing all things and making them safe for all regardless of each persons personal responsibility for them self. I believe providing adequate warning, it is 100% the purchasers responsibility. Sueing people and various companies and depositing responsibility where convenient in attempt to nullify ones own culpability is an unfortunate trend presently. I personally don't believe in it

Except that Gerry has posted a photo that implies a finished product: communicating strongly to the investor/buyer regardless of the fine print.  The banana jack is designed for convenience not permanence. My son is 1.5 yrs and wouldn't hesitate to yank.  Let Gerry show a finished product in an enclosure. He doesn't want to do this because his aesthetic is a major selling point.  Once it's mounted in the huge box he'll need, he's going to lose sales.  

[nate77]

I agree with you R.G., my personal standpoint doesn't inform the way courts will decide on anything, my point simply was that there are many people in this particular thread so flabbergasted that there is a product being sold that is potentially dangerous, but I'm not sure I see the grand issue. I appreciate the legal advice any of us are given by those who have more experience in these matters (and usually at some personal expense to gain this knowledge), but philosophically, I don't see why this has galvanized enough of us to have a 6 page thread about the danger of this product. That is only my opinion, and I do not presume to be an expert in building tube amps, the legality of responsibility or morality. As far as the other statement, I believe that if you have a 1 1/2 year old ( I have 2 children under 4) then it is your responsibility to keep them safe. Danger is quite literally everywhere. I would not blame the manufacturers of a wood stove, kitchen knife, set of stairs, a rock, a street curb, cup of hot coffee, a coffee table or anything else if my child got hurt while under my care unless it was produced specifically for the hold under the guise of safety. Tube amps and cords are not for children and we as parents need to be aware of that. Also, I have yet to see a tube amp kit that doesn't have a photo of the finished product. That would be marketing suicide and foolish

[R.G.]

I appreciate the legal advice any of us are given by those who have more experience in these matters (and usually at some personal expense to gain this knowledge), but philosophically, I don't see why this has galvanized enough of us to have a 6 page thread about the danger of this product. That is only my opinion, and I do not presume to be an expert in building tube amps, the legality of responsibility or morality.

The product hasn't galvanized this. What has produced the furor is the absolute insistence by Gerry that (1) it's completely safe (2) well, it's safe enough; (3) well, it's safer than other stuff like this; (4) actually, the world is wrong on this safety issue not me (Gerry). That and his willingness, nay, happiness to blather on about it.

Can you imagine how differently the conversation would have gone if Gerry had early on said "You know, you may have a point. I'll go look into that safety thing. How would YOU guys do it?"  He'd have received an outpouring of (free) ideas. But he's so stuck on arguing everyone into agreeing that he's right that he keeps on hacking people off when they're really only trying to help.

Judging from the responses he got in other forums, this is simply the way he is. Probably he can't do things differently.

Sad.

[pickdropper]

I think there is also a difference between a personal DIY product and something you are actively seeking funding so that it can be released as a finished product.

If this was posted as a fun DIY project he had made for himself, I think everybody would've thought it was fun and pretty cool.  But he's selling it as an education tool, which by nature implies it's going to be used by those who aren't knowledgeable about how these things work.  Making a building block type of product and mixing in high voltages seems like something that could present severe legal liabilities.  If it was low voltage, it would be a much different story.

If you are going to sell something in the market, you are bound by the laws of the land.  The original advice was simply that it would be worth a bit of money and some of his time to check with an expert on what the requirements are and what his potential legal exposure is.  Ignoring the laws because he doesn't agree with them won't really have much sway with the court.

[Greenmachine]

I believe that if you have a 1 1/2 year old ( I have 2 children under 4) then it is your responsibility to keep them safe. Danger is quite literally everywhere. I would not blame the manufacturers of a wood stove, kitchen knife, set of stairs, a rock, a street curb, cup of hot coffee, a coffee table or anything else if my child got hurt while under my care unless it was produced specifically for the hold under the guise of safety. Tube amps and cords are not for children and we as parents need to be aware of that. Also, I have yet to see a tube amp kit that doesn't have a photo of the finished product. That would be marketing suicide and foolish

Toyota would love to have you as a customer. You take all the blame!
http://www.mojotone.com/amp-parts/amp-kits-tweed-style
...and these guys are treading a fine line with marketing suicide according to you.  We can see the final product, which is pretty much the cabinet. But perhaps you mean the guts, in which case I suppose you're  right. That would be intimidating to many yes.
Edit: whoops, I reread your OP and see we actually agree about the finished product photo Nate777. My bad.

[Thecomedian]

RE: bool's Coppertone ad above. Saw that iconic image everywhere when I was kid. Everybody thought it was cute. Now it's considered child pornography (see http://www.techtimes.com/articles/9917/20140711/coppertone-girl-type-child-photo-gets-nc-mom-in-trouble-with-facebook.htm). Seems to me like something's gone wrong... Too many rules. Too much regulation. Not enough common sense.

Can of worms, cultural indoctrination, media hype and sensationalization, feminism, politician lobby for votes, etc. Let's stay away from these kinds of things. I take incredibly lethal danger seriously in products to customers seriously. It's not like a pointy stick where common sense can tell you what's going to happen even to a child. Electricity is an unforgiving mistress and most people don't have a clear concept without actually learning in depth about it.

Also you have to build for the lowest common denominator. Not everyone is intelligent in society.

[Seljer]

Is the selling it as a kit somewhat of a loophole in all this certifications business (as the battery powered devices mentioned earlier in the thread)?

If you sold the the banana jack "death trap" (I kid, it's not that bad  ) in a form where you would first have to assemble the modules by yourself before going you start juggling around preamp order and such put you slightly more in the clear were legal issues to arise (along with a bundled all-capital-letters disclaimer)?