Banana Jack Amps: No-Solder, All-Tube Guitar Amp Kits

[Gerry Rzeppa]

Sueing people and various companies and depositing responsibility where convenient in attempt to nullify ones own culpability is an unfortunate trend presently. I personally don't believe in it

Sadly, the courts don't believe in your not believing in it.

I don't agree with the legal climate either, but it is what it is. Deciding that it doesn't exist is like letting go of an anvil held above your foot and deciding that you don't agree with gravity existing.

But how does a particular "legal climate" arise? By people "going along with it". How does one change such a thing? By speaking and acting contrary to it. By saying, in word and deed, "I, for one, am not buying it. I think I'm being reasonable, and you're not. Sue me if you want, but I'm going to stand my ground -- and thus shift the burden of proof to the other side."

[Gerry Rzeppa]

...Gerry has posted a photo that implies a finished product: communicating strongly to the investor/buyer regardless of the fine print.

Every product on Kickstarter is a prototype; that's the whole idea of the site. And my amp is clearly labeled a prototype right above the picture where it says, "Our prototype kit...".

The banana jack is designed for convenience not permanence.

Which makes it ideal for an educational kit.

My son is 1.5 yrs and wouldn't hesitate to yank.

But your son wouldn't be buying one of our kits. And you, presumably, wouldn't be fool enough to leave one where he could get at it. Do you keep sharp kitchen knives in the toy box? Besides, he's already learning not to mess with electrical things, right? I'm sure you've warned him about these things:

Let Gerry show a finished product in an enclosure. He doesn't want to do this because his aesthetic is a major selling point.

The product is intended for education; the student is supposed to see and examine, not just the modules, but the components inside (with the amp unplugged, of course).

Once it's mounted in the huge box he'll need, he's going to lose sales.  

On the contrary, I think we'll be seeing even more interest when we start promoting enclosures to compliment our modules, something (as I've mentioned before) like this kit from our Coppertone line:

[Gerry Rzeppa]

What has produced the furor is the absolute insistence by Gerry that (1) it's completely safe (2) well, it's safe enough; (3) well, it's safer than other stuff like this; (4) actually, the world is wrong on this safety issue not me (Gerry).

Nothing is completely safe, and I don't believe I ever said such a thing. If I did, you have my sincere apology. I do contend, however, that Banana Jack Amps are (1) reasonably safe, (2) safe enough for the intended market, (3) safer than other comparable kits, and yes, (4) that the world has gone overboard on safety issues. I don't make my kid put on knee pads and a helmet to ride his bike around the block. And I don't see why beliefs like these should cause a "furor" anywhere.

[Gerry Rzeppa]

If you are going to sell something in the market, you are bound by the laws of the land.

Indeed. And the laws of the land currently say nothing about the safety of tube guitar amp kits. Which is a good thing, because it fosters creativity, and small independent businesses, etc. So be careful what you wish for, my fellow do-it-yourselfers. Do you really want to have to pass a test and get a license to buy an amp kit from Weber, or Mojotone, or MOD Amps, or S5 Electronics, or others like them? Do you want companies such as these to go out of business because they can't afford the mandatory pre-market testing that the government will one day impose upon them?

To the younger folks here: I'm old and will soon be going to a better place. But you're going to have to live for some time yet in the world you make for yourselves. And, believe it or not, you're contributing to the making of that world with your remarks (pro or con) on a thread like this. Be careful: it's been my observation, over the last six decades, that in the end, God tends to give people exactly what they've asked for...

[Gerry Rzeppa]

Also you have to build for the lowest common denominator. Not everyone is intelligent in society.

But everyone in America somehow manages to keep their kids safe, even with things like these, a foot off the ground, all over their homes:



Let's try to keep things in perspective here, guys.

[pickdropper]

*Shrug* we may have to agree to disagree, Gerry.  A high voltage building block kit seems chock full of liability.  If it were me, I'd talk to an expert and make sure I wasn't going to be legally exposed by it.  But clearly you don't feel that it is worth it and it's your risk to take.  I honestly wish you the best with it and hope that my concerns don't come to pass.

[Gerry Rzeppa]

If you sold the the banana jack "death trap" (I kid, it's not that bad  ) in a form where you would first have to assemble the modules by yourself before going you start juggling around preamp order and such put you slightly more in the clear were legal issues to arise (along with a bundled all-capital-letters disclaimer)?

I don't that that would affect the legal issue regarding whether it's a kit or not; our modules by themselves do nothing useful and are thus components, not consumer products. (A transformer bolted to a box with banana jacks on the ends of the wires is still just a transformer.) But we have considered offering the thing as a two-step kit for those who do know how to solder: (1) build the modules, (2) hook 'em together in various ways. It's a good idea.

[Greenmachine]

...Gerry has posted a photo that implies a finished product: communicating strongly to the investor/buyer regardless of the fine print.

Every product on Kickstarter is a prototype; that's the whole idea of the site. And my amp is clearly labeled a prototype right above the picture where it says, "Our prototype kit...".

[Greenmachine]

...Gerry has posted a photo that implies a finished product: communicating strongly to the investor/buyer regardless of the fine print.

Every product on Kickstarter is a prototype; that's the whole idea of the site. And my amp is clearly labeled a prototype right above the picture where it says, "Our prototype kit...".

Sounds like an excuse to me.

From the Oxford Online Dictionary, entry "prototype"

1 a) The first or primary type of a person or thing; an original on which something is modelled or from which it is derived; an exemplar, an archetype.
b) b. In model-making: a full-size original of which a model is a representation on a reduced scale.
3. A first full-size working version of a new vehicle, machine, etc., of which further improvements may be made; a preliminary version made in small numbers for evaluation, or from which improved or modified versions may be developed.

... Your fine print declares the final product is enclosed.  Your photo says something else.  We know how powerful images can be.  Intentional or not, your prototype in the photo is incomplete.  I don't see "incomplete" anywhere in these definitions of prototype.  I see words like "exemplar", "full-size original" though.  I think you'd be happy to have people have your unenclosed zap-machine sitting around; you've pretty much said so in your earliest defense of these plugs. 

Perhaps you should reread the earlier challenges to your analogy with the conventional plug and socket.  I think they argued strongly and convincingly that your comparison is "apples to oranges."

[Thecomedian]

Also you have to build for the lowest common denominator. Not everyone is intelligent in society.

But everyone in America somehow manages to keep their kids safe, even with things like these, a foot off the ground, all over their homes:



Let's try to keep things in perspective here, guys.

http://www.goodhousekeeping.com/product-reviews/research-institute/new-child-safe-electrical-outlets
http://www.marshallbrain.com/cp/electrical-outlets.htm

There is something about an electrical outlet that fascinates a child. Maybe it is the fact that it is right at eye level. Maybe it is the fact that parents use outlets, and children love to copy their parents. Maybe it's those little square holes perfectly sized for little fingers.

Whatever it is, it makes outlets extremely dangerous because they attract kids. If a child sticks wet fingers into an outlet, or even worse if a child sticks a piece of metal into an outlet, electocution is a definite possibility. Electrocution frequently results in death. About 100 kids die every year by electrocution. 

http://www.esfi.org/index.cfm/page/Injury-and-Fatality-Statistics/pid/12015

Each day, nearly 7 children are treated in hospital emergency rooms for electrical shock or burn injuries caused by tampering with a wall outlet

Each year, there is an estimated average of 60 electrocutions associated with consumer products.  The three most common product categories associated with electrocutions are small appliance, power tool, and lighting equipment.

According to the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, 70 percent of child-related electrical accidents occur at home, when adult supervision is present.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/what-if/finger-in-electrical-outlet.htm
http://moms4mom.com/questions/5311/can-kids-really-electrocute-themselves-by-sicking-their-fingers-in-a-power-socket
http://www.electrocutionattorney.com/child-shocked-by-electrical-outlet/
http://www.healthofchildren.com/E-F/Electric-Shock-Injuries.html

Perspective. Your system may be a greater risk than this stuff.

[R.G.]

Good one TC.

I didn't know there was a legal firm specialized in taking people to court if someone ever gets shocked, but I'm not surprised to find one exists.

Hmm. The insistent disregard of the safety issues makes me think that perhaps Gerry never intends to -market- the product, or finish development. He might be pulling a Devi Ever and intending to simply use the funds for ... well, please always to call it research.   

There are probably fewer lawyers specializing in suing failed R&D efforts than in injury suits.

Hard to tell what's going on inside there.

[pickdropper]

It seemed serious to me, but it's impossible to say for certain.

I just assumed hubris was taking charge of the decision making.

[Gerry Rzeppa]

The insistent disregard of the safety issues makes me think that perhaps Gerry never intends to -market- the product, or finish development. He might be pulling a Devi Ever and intending to simply use the funds for ... well, please always to call it research.

Getting pretty close to libel there, R.G.

[Gerry Rzeppa]

It seemed serious to me, but it's impossible to say for certain.

I'm always serious. Ask my wife. But I did think this was kind of ironic: I just got back from taking my youngest and his buddy to a carnival that rolled into town, and we noticed that all those rides were connected to the generator with what looked like giant, two-fisted banana plugs:





Right there in front of the cotton candy booth. Now I can't say the carnies actually looked healthy, or that they seemed like the type that would have an "electronics safety" certification, but they were all alive. And they looked like they had been hooking up those cables for a good number of years...

[Gerry Rzeppa]

"Each day, nearly 7 children are treated in hospital emergency rooms for electrical shock or burn injuries caused by tampering with a wall outlet."

I think you may be misquoting that: "...injuries caused by tampering with a wall outlet" should read "...injuries caused by their parents not paying enough attention." What kind of people let their kids tamper with wall outlets?

But even so: 7 out of 300,000,000 is a miniscule percentage (I'm assuming we're talking the U.S. only here, the report wasn't clear). 39 times that number, according to the report, are injured by hot tap water! (We keep our water hot enough to make a cup of tea, right out of the tap; no member of my extended family has ever been injured by this means. Again, it's not the wall sockets or the hot water that's the problem: it's the parents.)

In any case, I think it's fair to call something (like a standard wall socket) that fails to injure 299,999,993 people out of 300 million reasonably safe.

[Gerry Rzeppa]

By the way -- you'll be pleased to see that we've updated our Kickstarter to include the "Coppertone" version of the amp kit (where all of the banana jacks, plugs, and cables are completely and safely enclosed in a fully assembled kit):

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1335354839/banana-jack-amps-no-solder-all-tube-guitar-amp-kit/posts

[pickdropper]

It seemed serious to me, but it's impossible to say for certain.

I'm always serious. Ask my wife. But I did think this was kind of ironic: I just got back from taking my youngest and his buddy to a carnival that rolled into town, and we noticed that all those rides were connected to the generator with what looked like giant, two-fisted banana plugs:





Right there in front of the cotton candy booth. Now I can't say the carnies actually looked healthy, or that they seemed like the type that would have an "electronics safety" certification, but they were all alive. And they looked like they had been hooking up those cables for a good number of years...

This might be the silliest thing you've written.  The Carnies are trained how to hook them up and they are all adults.  The carnivals also have insurance.  I would bet that they don't allow lots to plug in and setup their rides (and if they did, they would likely lose their insurance).

I have a hard time believing you can't see the difference between carnival rides operated by adults and a kit that children can use as a learning tool.

I actually suspect that this was tongue in cheek, so I'll just assume it was.

[Gerry Rzeppa]

I have a hard time believing you can't see the difference between carnival rides operated by adults and a kit that children can use as a learning tool.

I think it would be helpful if we could more precisely define what we all mean by "children" (and adults!) in this context. Our amp kits are clearly not intended for the very young, or for the irresponsible of any age (like the dad who leaves a partially assembled kit, without a case, plugged in and on the floor where his crawling baby can get to it). I wish I could put a numeric value on the thing, but I don't know how to do that. There are all sorts of things that I'd trust to my 9-year-old son, that I wouldn't trust to some of those 29, 39, and 49-year-old carnies. But I'll take a shot at it: I really don't think many kids under the age of, say, fourteen would be interested in building a tube guitar amp kit like ours. And I think all such "kids" know not to mess with live wires.

[tombaker]

I feel like we should rename this thread to 'Gerry's first 36 posts at DIYstompboxes'.

I haven't been a member for long, but I have never seen a thread less devoted to creating stompboxes.

[Gerry Rzeppa]

I feel like we should rename this thread to 'Gerry's first 36 posts at DIYstompboxes'.

Good point. But note that I didn't start the thread -- I'm just responding to Google Alerts and half the time don't even know which site I'm on. And look at the number of views: over 3600 in just a few days! Somebody must think it's an interesting discussion.

I haven't been a member for long, but I have never seen a thread less devoted to creating stompboxes.

As I look back at the thing, it seems this particular thread is in great part fueled of the desire of some to STOMP my little plastic BOXES right out of existence! Perhaps that's the connection...