Banana Jack Amps: No-Solder, All-Tube Guitar Amp Kits

[Gerry Rzeppa]

See below.

[Gerry Rzeppa]

http://uk.farnell.com/wago/2092-1306/terminal-block-pcb-6-way-5mm/dp/2352344
http://uk.farnell.com/wago/2092-1406/terminal-block-pcb-6-way-5mm/dp/2352355

Theres bazillions of connectors out there, probably something similar and right-angled too.

It doesn't appear that those connectors meet criteria (c) available in the necessary colors, (e) is solderless at the cable end (so the student can make longer and short cables to complement his own designs without soldering) and (f) single conductor.

Seems I also forgot to mention qualification (h): point-to-point wiring, no printed circuit boards. The budget won't allow it, and I want the student to see "how it was done in the beginning" -- I wanted it to have a distinct "do it yourself" feel with only the most basic of components (no ICs, no microprocessors, etc).

Though if we got way over-funded and I handed the whole thing over to an established firm, it would probably end up more like you're imagining...

[vigilante397]

Don't take this the wrong way Gerry, but why are you posting here? I mean I understand that Google informed you that we're talking about your project, but why have you posted nearly 50 times on this thread? You're obviously not here to ask for advice or technical suggestions, and you're not here to ask us for money, that's what your kickstarter campaign is for. What are you expecting to gain from interacting with this forum?

[Gerry Rzeppa]

Don't take this the wrong way Gerry, but why are you posting here?

I'm responding to posts about my Kickstarter prototype; trying to make sure it isn't misunderstood and/or misrepresented.

I mean I understand that Google informed you that we're talking about your project, but why have you posted nearly 50 times on this thread?

I've responded 49 times because there were 49 posts "crying out" for responses. Yours being the 49th!

You're obviously not here to ask for advice or technical suggestions, and you're not here to ask us for money, that's what your kickstarter campaign is for.

True, I didn't come here primarily for advice or technical suggestions; but they're certainly welcome. In fact, it was the concern expressed here that some customers wouldn't be able to figure out how to make a cabinet for our modules that led to our offer of an extended kit that includes the enclosure:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1335354839/banana-jack-amps-no-solder-all-tube-guitar-amp-kit/posts

So I came (a) to see what was being said; (b) to"round out" the discussion by correcting misunderstandings and misrepresentations of our product; (c) to answer any other questions that may arise (like the one about why we use only half of our 12AX7s), and (d) to modify our offerings based on input received.

What are you expecting to gain from interacting with this forum?

Nothing, really. It's simply my job as a person with a Kickstarter campaign in progress to try to make sure the proposed product is fairly represented.

[J M Fahey]

Fine, you are actively searching the Net up and down for the smallest mention about you and/or the project.

You are guaranteed to appear anywhere within 45 minutes, even if it's the Snail Racer's Forum or whatever.
Doubly so if it's even remotely related to Tube Amps and by extension Music Instruments, Effects, etc.

I guess you realize (correctly)  that anybody going to the extreme of actually PLEDGING HARD EARNED MONEY TOWARDS YOUR POCKETS will do a little research .

Which means finding what others, including a lot of Technical savy people think about the project, but even more so, its implementation.

I bet possible INVESTORS WILL BE DISMAYED AT THE GRAVE ELECTRICAL PROBLEMS inherent to it.

BANANA JACKS HAVE LARGE EXPOSED METAL ENDS AND IN THIS PARTICULAR DESIGN CARRY LETHAL VOLTAGES.

Besides, even AFTER THE PROJECT IS BUILT AND POWERED WITH LETHAL VOLTAGES, BANANA JACKS ARE EASY TO PULL BY DESIGN AND ALLOW DIRECT CONTACT .

Of course you immediately log in to try to neutralize comments about the LACK OF SAFETY.

It goes like this: anybody says anything (in general well based), you instantly (try to) dismiss it.

Repeat 50 times (or 100 ... or 1000) , YOU ABSOLUTELY REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE ANY REAL SAFETY ISSUE .


That should ring a dozen alarm bells even in the dumbest investor.

Even more in a smart one.

[Gerry Rzeppa]

Fine, you are actively searching the Net up and down for the smallest mention about you and/or the project.

Actually, "Google Alerts" does the searching. Great little program. I'm sure millions of people use it just as we do.

You are guaranteed to appear anywhere within 45 minutes, even if it's the Snail Racer's Forum or whatever. Doubly so if it's even remotely related to Tube Amps and by extension Music Instruments, Effects, etc.

You have to be pretty specific with your alerts or you don't get good results. But I wish I was getting alerts every 45 minutes or less!

I guess you realize (correctly)  that anybody going to the extreme of actually PLEDGING HARD EARNED MONEY TOWARDS YOUR POCKETS will do a little research .

Those pledging "hard earned money," sure. But not all money is hard-earned; some have more than they know what to do with. How much serious product research do you think someone does before spending, say, $1000 on a pair of shoes, or $25,000 on a wristwatch? And I think even those pledging hard-earned money may simply trust their own judgement, especially if they already know something about the subject.

Which means finding what others, including a lot of Technical savy people think about the project, but even more so, its implementation.

Sure. Some people will research the thing. And we want them to find both sides of the story so they can make an informed decision.

I bet possible INVESTORS WILL BE DISMAYED AT THE GRAVE ELECTRICAL PROBLEMS inherent to it.

Some will, some won't. You can see the two basic kinds of responses right on these various forums. Consider the four responses to our back-to-back posts on The Gear Page:

1. Creative...interesting and most certainly educational (no mention of safety issues)

2. If people don't understand the concepts of high voltage and current then the kit is obviously not for them. Simple as that. There will be people contesting for yearly "Darwin Awards" with every kinds of appliances, no matter how "idiot proof" you build them. That is, IMO, their problem, not ours.

3. I would want an army of lawyers behind me, before I market this to musicians.

4. Guitarists are not the best at 'reading the instruction manual' and are quite used to plugging and unplugging jacks when things are powered on. I think those banana plugs could be lethal.

BANANA JACKS HAVE LARGE EXPOSED METAL ENDS AND IN THIS PARTICULAR DESIGN CARRY LETHAL VOLTAGES.

The metal ends are exposed only when the amp is in a disassembled state. All amp kits have exposed metal conductors in this state.

Besides, even AFTER THE PROJECT IS BUILT AND POWERED WITH LETHAL VOLTAGES, BANANA JACKS ARE EASY TO PULL BY DESIGN AND ALLOW DIRECT CONTACT .

Our banana plugs are not at all easy to pull out; they are not like the ones on a typical voltmeter. Really. And in a Banana Jack Amp that is being actively used (say, in a band), they would be inside a cabinet of some kind anyway. Like the one described in our project update:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1335354839/banana-jack-amps-no-solder-all-tube-guitar-amp-kit/posts

No exposed connectors there. None.

Of course you immediately log in to try to neutralize comments about the LACK OF SAFETY.

I wouldn't say, "neutralize," but rather, "put in perspective." Partly-assembled tube amp kits of any kind are dangerous when they are plugged in. Fortunately, most of the work done on such kits can be accomplished when they are not plugged in; and with our kits, ALL of the assembly and testing can be done when the amp is not plugged in. Which, you can see, makes our kit one of the safest -- if not the safest -- ever proposed.

It goes like this: anybody says anything (in general well based), you instantly (try to) dismiss it.

I believe that's been answered. See above.

Repeat 50 times (or 100 ... or 1000) , YOU ABSOLUTELY REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE ANY REAL SAFETY ISSUE .

Yes, I refuse to acknowledge any real safety issue. Our amp kit is as safe (if not safer) than any other tube amp kit on the market.

That should ring a dozen alarm bells even in the dumbest investor.

Time will tell.

Even more in a smart one.

Hope not; we're counting on the smart ones.

[Gerry Rzeppa]

Okay folks, let's see if we can put this "safety issue" to rest by comparing apples to apples. Here we have:

Top Left: An assembled Banana Jack chassis, ready for testing, further mods, etc.

Top Right: An assembled Mojotone Bassman chassis, ready for testing, further mods, etc.

Bottom Left: A Banana Jack chassis installed in a user-designed cabinet.

Bottom Right: A Mojotone Bassman chassis, installed in a user-designed cabinet.



I really don't see why anyone would think the stuff on the left is more dangerous than the stuff on the right. Seems to me, at the chassis level, the Banana Jack kit is much safer than the Mojotone Bassman. And once they're each fully enclosed, well, they're fully enclosed.

[Jack White]

Seriously guys, lay off my man Gerry.  If nanner plugs are safe enough for this person's ears then nanner jacks are safe enough for your amp.  I'm seriously going to commission him to build me a new circuit box with a burst button switch made out of copper and all nannered out.

[bool]

[karbomusic]

I held out as long as I could.   With the proper written cautions, I see nothing wrong with this. I started off on the safety side of this debate, then I realized I could browse the internet or catalog and easily get myself into much more trouble quite easily. I'm all for safety but at some point you gotta let stupid fix itself or we won't be able to do so much as build a 9V pedal without someone worrying a toddler will try to eat the knobs then there will be the no removable knobs law governed under some class X government rule requiring 2000.00 in testing to verify the knobs don't come off at an inopportune time.  I also think we are potentially conflating DIY with Production.

Soon, I can no longer buy and play with Bucky Balls

http://gizmodo.com/5929064/buckyballs-have-been-banned-by-the-feds

...because some irresponsible parent let their kids eat them, give me a break. Make sure the proper warnings exist and be done with it. The risks are the risks, if the seller is willing to make them known, and take them, it shouldn't be a problem.

[Gerry Rzeppa]

I held out as long as I could.   With the proper written cautions, I see nothing wrong with this. I started off on the safety side of this debate, then I realized I could browse the internet or catalog and easily get myself into much more trouble quite easily. I'm all for safety but at some point you gotta let stupid fix itself or we won't be able to do so much as build a 9V pedal without someone worrying a toddler will try to eat the knobs then there will be the no removable knobs law governed under some class X government rule requiring 2000.00 in testing to verify the knobs don't come off at an inopportune time.  I also think we are potentially conflating DIY with Production.

Soon, I can no longer buy and play with Bucky Balls

http://gizmodo.com/5929064/buckyballs-have-been-banned-by-the-feds

...because some irresponsible parent let their kids eat them, give me a break. Make sure the proper warnings exist and be done with it. The risks are the risks, if the seller is willing to make them known, and take them, it shouldn't be a problem.

Well said. Thank you very much.

[pickdropper]

I held out as long as I could.   With the proper written cautions, I see nothing wrong with this. I started off on the safety side of this debate, then I realized I could browse the internet or catalog and easily get myself into much more trouble quite easily. I'm all for safety but at some point you gotta let stupid fix itself or we won't be able to do so much as build a 9V pedal without someone worrying a toddler will try to eat the knobs then there will be the no removable knobs law governed under some class X government rule requiring 2000.00 in testing to verify the knobs don't come off at an inopportune time.  I also think we are potentially conflating DIY with Production.

Soon, I can no longer buy and play with Bucky Balls

http://gizmodo.com/5929064/buckyballs-have-been-banned-by-the-feds

...because some irresponsible parent let their kids eat them, give me a break. Make sure the proper warnings exist and be done with it. The risks are the risks, if the seller is willing to make them known, and take them, it shouldn't be a problem.

Well, I generally agree with the spirit of your post and the frustration that parents often don't do a good enough job of warning their children and explaining potential hazards.  Unfortunately, the laws are not usually structured around the responsible people but those who are not careful.  And lawsuits are the first thing that happens when something goes wrong, even if there is some culpability on the part of the user.  As a manufacturer, I would do whatever I reasonably could to shield myself from that possibility.

The President of the buckyballs company also agreed with you, but that didn't prevent the company from getting sued and Buckyballs pulled from the market (which was probably a bit much).  If you are a small company, that sort of thing could absolutely destroy you, which is why it's probably worth spending a few bucks to discuss the design with somebody who is well versed in safety requirements AND potential legal exposure.  An expert would let you know what warnings and what safety features could protect the manufacturer from being sued.  At the very least they could show due diligence that a proper risk analysis was done, which can help avoid lawsuits that claim negligence.

That is all anybody has said here.  It seems like somebody who isn't careful could use this product in a manner that could harm them; it's probably worth talking to a consultant who could help make sure the manufacturer isn't legally exposed.  It's a building block product, and there are high voltages outside of the blocks.  I think that is the crux of the issue.  If the blocks need to be in another enclosure to be safe, then the purpose of having the blocks in the first place is totally defeated.

I am not quite as down on the overall product as others are, although I think it probably needs refinement before it's ready to go.  I think most folks have dropped out of the thread at this point because it's been pretty much the same conversation for the last few pages and it's getting stagnant.  I don't expect that to change after my post either, but I felt compelled to post to clarify why the suggestions were made in the first place.

[karbomusic]

An expert would let you know what warnings and what safety features could protect the manufacturer from being sued.  At the very least they could show due diligence that a proper risk analysis was done, which can help avoid lawsuits that claim negligence

I agree, I just started getting the feeling we were as a whole being a little too motherly about it and more interested in some type of "I had it all wrong" admission. Seems like we probably covered 99% of the good advice in the first few posts. I'm new here so not much I can add. It was my spur of the moment, we've had our say, let the gentlemen be type of reaction. I'd prefer to allow someone to receive then take (or not take) advice and leave it at that because I personally would like the exact same respect. I would hate to decide to build something and find that I can't purchase the parts because someone decided I'm not smart enough to do it without hurting myself (simply because someone who isn't exists somewhere), that would be a serious buzz kill.

Good points though.

[pickdropper]

Yeah, I think your post is quite fair.

I actually had decided not to respond anymore for the exact reasons you mentioned.  My last post was just to clarify my earlier posts.

I think we've got a pretty good idea of where Gerry is at, and I suspect he's got a decent feel for what a lot of us think.  I wish him the best of luck going forward.

[Giglawyer]

Those pledging "hard earned money," sure. But not all money is hard-earned; some have more than they know what to do with. How much serious product research do you think someone does before spending, say, $1000 on a pair of shoes, or $25,000 on a wristwatch? And I think even those pledging hard-earned money may simply trust their own judgement, especially if they already know something about the subject.

Yes, I refuse to acknowledge any real safety issue. Our amp kit is as safe (if not safer) than any other tube amp kit on the market.

You are losing potential customers left and right with this kind of nonsense.  Do you think anyone here considers their money to not be "hard-earned"?  And, after 9 pages of people telling you you have safety problems, the best you come up with is a refusal to acknowledge them.  Sad, really.

[Giglawyer]

Okay folks, let's see if we can put this "safety issue" to rest by comparing apples to apples. Here we have:

Top Left: An assembled Banana Jack chassis, ready for testing, further mods, etc.

Top Right: An assembled Mojotone Bassman chassis, ready for testing, further mods, etc.

I really don't see why anyone would think the stuff on the left is more dangerous than the stuff on the right. Seems to me, at the chassis level, the Banana Jack kit is much safer than the Mojotone Bassman. And once they're each fully enclosed, well, they're fully enclosed.

But this isn't apples to apples.  If you assemble the Mojotone Bassman amp, you take non-dangerous implements and create the potential hazard.  Your product is a dangerous implement from the start, and the use of banana plugs rather than a safer alternative due to cost is just shameful.

Think of it in these terms.  Every Home Depot store sells all of the ingredients you need to make a rudimentary cattle prod.   But you would have to know what components to get, and how to assemble the cattle prod in order to make it dangerous.  You are selling people the cattle prod, and hoping they don't shock themselves on the unsafe switch you are using. 

There's your apples to apples.

[Gerry Rzeppa]

If you assemble the Mojotone Bassman amp, you take non-dangerous implements and create the potential hazard.

Not true. The Mojotone kit comes with a power cord -- one end with a plug for the wall, the other stripped wires. Dangerous the instant it's plugged in -- no construction necessary. Our kit, on the other hand, comes with an cord with a female connector on the amp end -- much safer. Not idiot proof, of course -- somebody could still decide to suck on it. But just another component in any case.

Your product is a dangerous implement from the start,

Again, not true. Like every component in the Mojotone kit, every module of ours is electrically inert as delivered. And unlike the capacitors in the Mojotone kit, ours automatically discharge when power is removed.

...and the use of banana plugs rather than a safer alternative due to cost is just shameful.

It would be if it were a matter of profit. It's not. It's a matter of "use cost-effective (but reasonably safe) connectors, or don't bring the product to market at all."

Think of it in these terms. Every Home Depot store sells all of the ingredients you need to make a rudimentary cattle prod.   But you would have to know what components to get, and how to assemble the cattle prod in order to make it dangerous.  You are selling people the cattle prod, and hoping they don't shock themselves on the unsafe switch you are using. 

Again, you appear to be confused. We're selling components, just like all the other amp kit manufacturers. Our components are higher-level (think of them like giant integrated circuits), and are easier to connect to each other, but they are still components. They don't do anything unless they're assembled.

Our kit is like a "breadboard for tube amps". Figure out what you want on your bench, quickly and easily, then dream up a cabinet and build your dream amp. Without soldering. Good stuff.

[merlinb]

The Mojotone kit comes with a power cord -- one end with a plug for the wall, the other stripped wires. Dangerous the instant it's plugged in -- no construction necessary.

Is that true?
...
Holy sh1t, they do!

Our components are higher-level (think of them like giant integrated circuits), and are easier to connect to each other, but they are still components. They don't do anything unless they're assembled.

Unfortunately, you can't use that excuse, because with your components it is obvious even to the uninitiated how the parts ought to go together. All you have to do is plug the IEC lead into the IEC socket on the fuse box, and a banana lead into banana socket, and...

[Gerry Rzeppa]

Unfortunately, you can't use that excuse, because with your components it is obvious even to the uninitiated how the parts ought to go together.

Curious choice of terms there, my friend. Uninitiated. Could that be the problem? Could it be that I've found an elegant and practical way around the long-standing Initiation Rites and Hazing Rituals of the Ancient Order of Valve Amp Builders and have thus aroused the invidia of some of the most esteemed members of that august and venerable body? God forbid that unwashed masses of the uninitiated (who know full well not to stick their fingers in electrical sockets, and not to pick up live electrical wires hanging from telephone poles) be allowed to enter those hallowed halls uninvited!

"Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered." -- Luke 11:52

[merlinb]

God forbid that unwashed masses of the uninitiated (who know full well not to stick their fingers in electrical sockets, and not to pick up live electrical wires hanging from telephone poles) be allowed to enter those hallowed halls uninvited!

Laywers say "those skilled in the arts"...
Even a child, or my mum, would figure out to plug an IEC lead into an IEC socket and a banana lead into a banana socket. That's all it takes to get a shock from your setup, and it is not reasonable to expect self-evident connections like that to create a lethal hazard. It needs to be more difficult.
As I've pointed out, it would actually take some very minimal changes to your design to make it pretty safe.