Laser Etching

[italianguy63]

It may have been discussed.. but, has anyone here done a DIY laser etching robot?  One strong enough to etch PCBs or powder coated enclosures?

I ran across an inexpensive plotting table from MakeBlock... and the question hit me.  Is this doable for DIY?

MC

[therecordingart]

I'm curious about the same thing. If the Makeblock can etch powdercoat then it's worth the $300, but Makeblock hasn't responded to my inquiries. I wonder if the Chinese 40w units for about $500 will do it. 

[Mustachio]

I'm not very knowledgeable about the lasers, But it looks like 300 bucks gets you the plotter without the laser. 99 bucks for the 500mW laser upgrade kit.

I don't know about etching any pcb or metals with those machines I think the 250mW and 500mW is similar to a dvd burner laser. You might be able to burn away a layer of etch resist, and burn images into wood. I seen something similar from china for about  $125 a few months back but it had a much smaller work area and was aimed more at burning logos into plastic cellphone cases.

I have been interested in the 40w Chinese laser machines too, they look decent and are enclosed and set up for ventilation which might be a good idea with burning away paints and such. I know before the problem was software that was compatible with the machine and what formats they accept , but I read not long ago they have new software which accepts vectors. Still with the 40W CO2 laser I was told you cant really etch metals like pcb materials or enclosures, that you would have to paint and burn away the area you want exposed for etching or for graphics.

[italianguy63]

Me too... wondering if a more powerful laser head could be fitted.  Jim, don't you cut PCBs??

MC

[stevie1556]

I can answer most of the questions you have about Chinese laser cutters as I've just bought a 40W one from eBay. I sell a lot of powder coated enclosures, and thought it would be a nice addition to offer laser etched labels. The software is horrendous, and I'm currently near the end of a DSP upgrade which more or less makes it a high spec machine.

The 250mW and 500mW mini lasers essentially use a DVD laser, and it isn't powerful enough to burn away powder coat. Also, to do enclosures and PCBs, you need a completely different type of laser to a Chinese one, but for acrylic, powder coat, etc, it's brilliant. Although I will say the machine is a hell of a lot bigger then I was expecting.

If you want to know anything else on them, let me know.

Here is a picture of my of my laser etched, powder coated enclosures. This one is a buffer.

[italianguy63]

Stevie--

That is exactly what I am wanting to accomplish.  I have had problems with enclosure printing with PPP (they are fired from this task forever).  But, they still do nice powdercoat work.  I want to do my own design, and have no issue with building a table (see the MakeBlock unit above).

Anything you can provide me would be very much appreciated.  Feel free to dump any docs, etc. to my private e-mail at mchiampi@verizon.net

Anything you can shed light on regarding lasers, tables, software etc. would be great!

Thanks in advance!
Mark

[chi_boy]

This is an interesting topic.  It would be nice to share that information here too.

For that matter it would be nice to know if anyone is offering the service to hire.  I would imagine that anyone who bought one of these for personal use would entertain the idea of offering the service to offset the cost of the machine. 

Cheers,
George

[stevie1556]

Italianguy - I don't have any documents apart from an upgrade manual that came with the upgrade kit. But because other people will be interested, I'd rather keep everything on the thread for learning purposes. You're more then welcome to PM me about it though.

Chi_boy - the main purpose of getting the laser was to etch labels into my boxes, but I also do my own powder coating (being in the UK, it's hard to get powder coated boxes), and I also sell the boxes. I'm going to offer laser etching with the powder coated boxes, as I've never got on with water slide decals, and screen printing has big setup costs. Initally I was getting my boxes laser etched at a local place for £2.50 as they were doing them in between other jobs when they were quiet, but that increased to £20 a box after a while, so I needed to get my own.

As far as lasers go (remember my knowledge is limited to what I've learnt over the last few months), that Makeblock kit wouldn't work with the laser as I very much doubt it would be anywhere near powerful enough judging by the tiny power supply (to put it into perspective, my laser tube runs on 25,000V DC). Also, I wouldn't use a laser machine unless it's in an enclosed unit (I've caused a lot of mini fires inside it already).

My usable work area is 300x200mm which is plenty big enough so a bigger machine than the really cheap Chinese 40W laser on eBay isn't really needed. I'm going to cut a template out of acrylic, which I can then just place boxes inside them and maybe do 5 or 6 at a time.

As far as software goes, mine runs off of LaserCAD, which isn't great, but quite usable. However, the one I'm using adds a macro to CoralDRAW, so I can design in that, and then import straight into it by pressing one button. The place that was originally doing my boxes gave me a very quick crash course on Coral, and I love that software. The software that comes with the laser as standard is MoshiDRAW, which I'm lead to believe is absolutely shocking.

[Mustachio]

Nice stuff man! I figured that 40w Chinese laser would be perfect for powder coat etc!

Mark I do pcb's, but with a cnc router using an end mill to cut away instead of a laser.

I thought I read somewhere that you can change the controller hardware on those laser machines so you can run them from other software but I don't know much about it. Sounds like you may already be on to that one Stevie. I Would like to hear more about that

[stevie1556]

The laser is perfect for laser cutting, I'm running the laser at 15% power, and I'm getting great results.

You can change the controller on them, I've upgraded to a DSP controller for mine, and it runs LaserCAD. It's a big upgrade though, and the only thing left that's original is the chassis, laser tube and X-Y axis. I've got one PSU powering the laser, a 24V PSU powering the DSP controller and the 3 stepper motors (one for each axis and one for the up/down table), and a 5V PSU to power the red dot pointer and LED light strip (haven't installed them yet though). I have had a lot of help installing the upgrade though, and I'm more them happy to help others as and where I can.

For the controller card, I think the unit number is AW608, and below is a poor picture of the controller for it

[gtudoran]

As far as i can see it here there are 2 discussions and i will try to share my knowledge

- to etch PCB directly form a copper clad or to etch an aluminium enclosure directly you will need a different kind of laser, you will need a YAG it's a solid state laser and you will need about 40 to 70w of power depending on the thickness of the copper layer. Of course there is another method of doing it and is called marking (suited for Aluminium, Stainless steel, Brass, Copper etc) and it consists in a transparent chemical that is applied on the working piece, let it dry and mark it with a CO2 laser - but that is marking not etching

- to etch some powder coating / paint out of a coted/painted enclosure you can do it with a 40-60w CO2 laser without a problem (done it a lot of times before)

[darron]

As low as 25W works perfectly for one-pass powder cost engraving. Don't buy those Chinese machines.

I keep posting it, but I can't imagine a way to use a laser to engrave / etch PCB. Even if you engraved through the cooper, getting the power setting right to not then blast through the fibreglass seems impossible. And messy.

I use a co2 laser to make my acid etch masks to make the PCB though. Saves pain-in- the-bum ironing and UV exposure chemicals etc.

[stevie1556]

As low as 25W works perfectly for one-pass powder cost engraving. Don't buy those Chinese machines.

There is nothing wrong with the cheap laser machines from China. I've seen the results someone is getting from their one and you wouldn't tell the difference between that and a proper one. I've also bought a cheap Chinese one which was £450 on eBay, and I've just installed a DSP upgrade kit (still need to hook up the air assist and red dot pointer), but all in all, you can't tell the difference in the results between it and a Epilog (which I've had some of my enclosures etched on before).

Also, my machine is a 40W model, and I'm etching boxes perfectly and 15% power which is 6W. Apparantly though, the machines are actually 35W because the length of the tube isn't long enough for 40W, which means I'm etching boxes at 5.25W, in a single pass, with a 0.1mm gap between the scan lines with it.

Here is a video I made the other night, running at 15% power, 0.1mm scan line, 170 speed, through 2 coats of powder coat (yellow colour and a sparkle clear coat over it) https://www.dropbox.com/s/59ose9nquit0un0/20141126_171701.mp4?dl=0

[darron]

So even lower will work well

But yeah, 60W isn't necessary. 500mA is a joke though. As said above you can rip the module out of a DVD burner for that effect!

My only experience with a Chinese one was terrible. Shouldn't disregard all of them I suppose. The resolution was low and you could see the pixels and it was a bit jagged. Probably wouldn't be great to do multiple passes.

Can't get the vid to play Can see the first frame. Will try it in the morning sounds cool

I actually uploaded a Facebook video last night too, engraving a PCB mask: https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=831003046950107&l=2285736148209843671

[stevie1556]

Wow, didn't realise you were Dazatronyx! A friend sent me a link to one of your videos where you show the building of a box, and you cut a drilling template out of acrylic, glue it round a box, and run a small drill bit through the holes. Awesome video, and I built a drilling template box out of 3mm acrylic, using your video as inspiration. Many many many thanks for that!

I do have to agree with you about the DVD burner laser ones, I nearly bout one for about £89, decided against it as I was really worried about the power of it not cutting through the paint.

I'll be honest with you, when my laser turned up,I wasn't feeling very inclined to try using it like that. The only thing original in my machine is the laser tube, mirrors, X-Y axis and the chassis. I've ripped the machine apart, chucked everything in the bin, and replaced it with a massive upgrade, including 3 PSUs (the main one is now a PWM one), DSP controller card and panel, 3 stepper drivers (dunno how it was supposed to work without them), and a up/down table. It's a stupidly big upgrade, taken me a few months of working on it off and on, but I can now call it a much higher spec machine for it.

In that video of yours, is that a Epilog laser? If so, I'm stupidly jealous!

[newperson]

Do you have a link that is not facebook? 

So even lower will work well

But yeah, 60W isn't necessary. 500mA is a joke though. As said above you can rip the module out of a DVD burner for that effect!

My only experience with a Chinese one was terrible. Shouldn't disregard all of them I suppose. The resolution was low and you could see the pixels and it was a bit jagged. Probably wouldn't be great to do multiple passes.

Can't get the vid to play Can see the first frame. Will try it in the morning sounds cool

I actually uploaded a Facebook video last night too, engraving a PCB mask: https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=831003046950107&l=2285736148209843671

[pickdropper]

So even lower will work well

But yeah, 60W isn't necessary. 500mA is a joke though. As said above you can rip the module out of a DVD burner for that effect!

My only experience with a Chinese one was terrible. Shouldn't disregard all of them I suppose. The resolution was low and you could see the pixels and it was a bit jagged. Probably wouldn't be great to do multiple passes.

Can't get the vid to play Can see the first frame. Will try it in the morning sounds cool

I actually uploaded a Facebook video last night too, engraving a PCB mask: https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=831003046950107&l=2285736148209843671

Darren knows what he is talking about here.  I regularly use a 30W machine and it's fine for etching powder coat.

I can understand the allure of those cheap Chinese machines, but one should be very aware of what they are buying into when getting them.  There are a few potential issues to watch out for:

1.)  Software support.  A lot of the better machines setup the laser engravers with standard Windows printer drivers so you aren't tied to any really clunky software, which some of the machines out there are.  The really cheap machines tend to be more hobbyist oriented and often support JPG and BMP, neither of which I would want to etch with.  For the best results, you really want to etch vector files.

2.)  Hardware support.  The established companies have done a good job of providing long term support and parts availability on their machines.  You can feel reasonably comfortable that you will be able to buy the parts 5-10 years down the road.  The same may not hold true for the cheap Chinese machines.  If you only plan to use it for a year or two then maybe parts availability isn't a concern.  On the Epilog we have where I work, I've had to replace a handful of parts already.  If you use the machine regularly, the parts wear out.  At the very least, it's something to be aware of.

3.)  Quality of parts in general.  If you are doing really intricate designs, you may find that the cheaper motors in the really cheap Chinese machines may not hold the run to run accuracy you need.   The laser tubes themselves aren't as nicely made on the cheaper machines and aren't as robust.  The practical upshot is that they are much cheaper to replace when they do go bad.

I know Steve has spent many hours and some level of money (I have no idea what) upgrading his Chinese machine.  He seems to be happy with it, which is great.  I applaud his efforts.

There are also some higher end Chinese machines that can do really nice work (although I still have concerns about long term parts availability). 

In the end, it just pays to read up and make a decision about what it is worth to you.  Obviously, you aren't going to get a machine for $500 that compares with a $10k machine, but perhaps it can work out for you.  I would just recommend finding out as much info as you can so you aren't surprised down the road.

[darron]

non faeces book:

[darron]

i have NO IDEA how this works, but there's a video here claiming they are using a 20W fibre laser to completely make circuit boards. says it takes 6x passes though:
http://youtu.be/Bpzm9kB7_uI

[stevie1556]

That video is cool, although I was under the impression you needed a YAG laser to go through metal, as a CO2 laser is the wrong wavelength (I think). I've got some old circuit board somewhere I think, if I can find it I'll be trying it out!

To try to expand on Daves points, using my experience of an Epilog at my local engravers compared to my Chinese one......

With the software support, their Epilog one can print straight from CorelDRAW using printer drivers like Dave said, my one was supposed to use MoshiDRAW, which I've heard is near diabolical to use. Since I upgraded to DSP, it uses LaserCAD, so I need to draw something out in Corel, and them import it to LaserCAD, then send the file to the laser. It's definitely not as streamlined as the better machines.

The quality of the laser cutters range from shocking to great depending on the supplier, also, there isn't really any standard from what I can tell. Parts like stepper motors, belts, mirrors, laser tubes, etc can be replaced easily enough, but how long the parts will last, or be availible for, I don't know. I do want to get some spares just in case, but one thing I've noticed is that the part quality does vary from supplier to supplier.

Quality of the parts in the machines compared to the proper machines would definitely be lower. I know most of the Chinese machines use stepper motors to drive the belts, and the proper machines use servos, I think. From my limited knowledge, servos are a lot more accurate.

As Dave also said, I've got a stupid amount of time and money tied up in my machine. I originally bought a fully upgraded machine direct from a manufacturer from China, but they cancelled the order as they were going to ship it by sea and wanted the payment by AliEscrow, to get round the sites 30 day refund policy. I was waiting for a bigger, already upgraded machine to come into stock with a Chinese company that keeps some in the UK, but they couldn't give me a ETA, so after a month of waiting I went for the smaller, cheaper one and buying a upgrade kit from America. The postage was high, and the import charges on top was a silly amount. I do regret not going through with the first machine, but I have learnt a lot about how it all works. I believe my current total for it so far is £1400-1500 (machine cost, upgrade kit, import charge, other extra parts, wire, etc) and I started it back in August. Several problems along the way have slowed me down until I found out more information on what I can do to fix said issue. It's not a small upgrade though, it involves removing everything from the machine, installing all new parts, rewiring absolutely everything, but it's finally been worth it.