Is it lazy to use existing layouts or premade PCB's?

[mattoverse]

I've just gotten into building pedals in the last 3-4 months and am really enjoying it.  However, I have been forcing myself to create my own veroboard layouts from existing schematics.  At first it was just to force myself to gain a better grasp of signal flow etc..  But now that I am getting into more complex pedals, Ross Compressor, PT2399 based delays etc.., I am successfully creating my own layouts but it is very time consuming and often frustrating.  I guess I am not sure why I can't just bring myself to use existing layouts or buy premade PCB's, but it makes me feel lazy or something, even though I am long ways from coming up with my own designs and am using existing schematics anyway.  Am I crazy or have any of the rest of you also had this hangup?

Also, I just joined the forum but have found the threads and members posts invaluable as I continue to learn and I wanted to say thanks to all of you!

[bluebunny]

Welcome to the forum.

To answer your question: "no".   

I do PCBs, vero and perf.  I like the variety.  Haven't gotten around to etching a PCB myself, although I've got all the stuff.  Perhaps that is a little lazy.  At the same time, I'm happy to pay back (literally) to the folks around here that make these boards available, and who also share their knowledge and experience.  I think that the more you hang out around here, and the more you build, the more you'll understand what's going on with the electronics.  At that point, it becomes moot whether you produce your own board or not.

[davent]

I've been at this quite afew years and just finished my first pedal with a commercial board in it... it felt like cheating. I really enjoy creating pcb layouts, one of my favorite parts of building, i really missed doing it and didn't feel particularily motivated to get on with the project not having at the very least etched the board. I'll also  use someone elses art for boards but usually have done a lot of tweaking to it before getting to the etch.

Have a small pile of commercial boards to work through, easy to populate and use, easy to get ahold of but... something's missing.

Keep working at doing layouts, check out how other's have tackled the same circuits, practice, it gets easier as you get fluent with the software you may be using. Start with simple circuits, save the Lovetone stuff for later!
dave

[karbomusic]

I've just gotten into building pedals in the last 3-4 months and am really enjoying it.  However, I have been forcing myself to create my own veroboard layouts from existing schematics.  At first it was just to force myself to gain a better grasp of signal flow etc..  But now that I am getting into more complex pedals, Ross Compressor, PT2399 based delays etc.., I am successfully creating my own layouts but it is very time consuming and often frustrating.  I guess I am not sure why I can't just bring myself to use existing layouts or buy premade PCB's, but it makes me feel lazy or something, even though I am long ways from coming up with my own designs and am using existing schematics anyway.  Am I crazy or have any of the rest of you also had this hangup?

Also, I just joined the forum but have found the threads and members posts invaluable as I continue to learn and I wanted to say thanks to all of you!

I think you are on the exact right track. What you learn (especially the frustration part) by doing your own layout is unteachable and invaluable. I started the exact same way, I refused to build anything I didn't layout myself and began with Vero, then moved on to etching my own PCBs. It forces you to make mistakes and learn circuits better and as you probably know by now, you get better at troubleshooting because you get burned and start learning what all the parts do.

At this point I'm about 80/20... 80% I still do myself, it's good for the soul and good for the chops and many times my own design so there isn't a layout. The rest I do other's and I etch their PCB layout and the majority of those are things I just "need" and quickly for use more than the experience. I'd stand behind the fact that the skills you are building are irreplaceable, especially when it hurts some so consider the frustration hidden gold.

[deadastronaut]

''Is it lazy to use existing layouts or premade PCB's?''

not at all...

pre made layouts + pcbs have been gone over with a fine tooth comb and have had someone do

very detailed work on it ....and above all else, very much verified.

in my case as in others , from the breadboard for ages tweaking, to a finished board

takes me months...literally...but the end result is a project well worth building and won't

be gathering dust on a shelf after 2 weeks.....

start of breadboarding, then do vero/diylc pcb's, then when you get fed up with cutting pcb board , etching + drilling..

then maybe subject yourself to a massive learning curve (as in my case ) with a pro pcb fab prog like eagle....etc etc..

[Keppy]

I'm mostly building my own designs, but when I want to clone something I'll generally use an existing layout. Spend your energy, when possible, on the parts of the hobby you like - in my case, design. Don't get me wrong, doing your own layouts is great experience, but there's absolutely no reason to do it ALL the time. Besides, forgoing a few layouts might save you enough time to build even more pedals.

[mattoverse]

Thanks, I very much appreciate the responses and you have all made some excellent points.  I am currently using the DIYLC software as the I am still having trouble getting Eagle to install on my Mac.  I plan to continue to do my own vero layouts and am very much interested in getting my feet wet with PCB layout design as well.  But I might end up trying a premade or two just to see how it goes.

[StarGeezers]

  We actually prefer PCBs and layouts  as a major Convenience...  although we can build P2P  from the schematic , It's much quicker having all the hard work done already.   but then I'm more a guitar player , and not specifically a pedal builder...  Just want to get it done so we can use it ... 

[duck_arse]

I have designed and etched pcb's years ago, and would again if I had the money for blanks and a laser printer. I've always done vero, just finished my second perf. I now look at vero and just go -urgh-, it just looks so wasteful and pointless and difficult. perf though: I've come up with a very stupid method of doing it (ask me), I've just finished a clamping jig for handling the boards easier, and then I made a tool. my tool is too big, but it does with the stupid method real good, and neat, and makes the method work.

now I want to build perf, perf, perf. even after hours and hours of diylayout-ing, shifting shifting, allays shifting parts.

and then my weller turned on cold.

bugger.

[PRR]

My neighbor built his own car. Or rather he found 1/4 of a 1935 Chevy in a field, found bits (engine, axle, grille) of many other cars around town, fabricated rear suspension and hundreds of brackets, made template for new windshield glass, and got it street-registered.

Now he's got two lengths of heavy tubing, and I know he is going to do another one, totally from scratch. (Oh, he'll find a pre-made engine I'm sure.)

Do I feel guilty for driving a pre-made car?

I envy the fun he had solving all those puzzles for 2 years. I know I would lose patience and it would sit rusting.

If you need a career in the fast-growing(?) high-pay(?) exciting(?) world of creative circuit building, you sure need to chain yourself to the bench and get very good at layouts. (Also running a business or managing idiot bosses.)

99% of musicians just go to Banjo Plaza and throw cash at pre-built pedals. That's always been a fine path to follow. I don't see any shame in using published layouts. Even if you DIY a layout, aren't you using circuits that you did not DIY yourself? And transistors you did not bake in your kitchen? And electrons that come from EverReady instead of your own little steam-engine dynamo? Where do you draw a line?

[tranceracer]

I don't think so.  I'd like to think the purpose of this great forum is to share layouts and pcb designs to save each other work if the design is what you want. 

I'd hope that if you come out w/ a better design that it would be shared too.  (;

I generally create new pcb layouts because I want/need a specific parts layout, make it smaller or modify the ckt.

[alanp]

Depends. If someone has made a PCB that ticks all the boxes (boardmounted pots and switches in logical locations, clean layout, not gonzo size...) then I'll cheerfully buy one.

If someone has made a PCB that doesn't fit my needs very well, then it's time to fire up Eagle. PCB's that rely heavily on ten bazillion wire runs, lots of open unused space, pads in weird locations... or etch-your-own stuff, I'd rather pay Haberdasher to do that, and even then only if it's something I don't want to (or can't) lay out myself.

If the circuit doesn't have a PCB available, then it's time to fire up Eagle just to get one at all!

[Eddododo]

I personally like figuring out layouts, as much as it is frustrating

Depends on your goals / interests in diy... for me alot of that process is my own version of sudoku

[Jdansti]

Welcome! The short answer is "No". I like the challenge of doing my own designs, figuring out Vero layouts, and etching boards; however, if there's an existing pedal I like, I may buy a prefabbed PCB.  Doing the designs and making your own boards is a great learning experience and it's rewarding, but sometimes it's nice to build off of existing designs and PCBs. Deadastronaut, Merlin, and many others on the forum have come up with unique and great sounding designs that I want on my pedalboard, so I use their design. I've bought a couple of DA's boards and enjoyed using them. There's still a lot of my own imagination that goes into the enclosure. The real answer is do what makes you happy, and don't worry about whether your approach is right or wrong. There's no one on the forum that would judge you either way. BTW- If you have some of your own designs, don't be afraid to start a thread and share them. Also, some people enjoy collaborating on designs. There are several collaboration projects on the forum where several people designed and tested the effect over a period of several weeks or months. Have fun!

[Mark Hammer]

There is certainly more pride in having designed everything from A to Z for a stompbox, including the layout.  But there is certainly no shame in using an existing layout, or starting with a commercial pedal that not only has a layout but all the parts installed, and modding it to yield a different outcome.

Remember, it's DIY and not DIAY (Do It ALL Yourself).  However much "it" consists of, you should enjoy it and get to musical usefulness as soon as you can.

[Crowella]

Exactly.

Look, people in the programming industry consistently use "libraries" instead of making their own to perform certain commands. There is no point reinventing the wheel when that wheel has been tried and tested thousands of times with no issue. Sure, we all like to make our own layouts to make it feel specifically ours but there are people that have made great layouts that will work in so many situations. No fear in using one for yourself. It may be cheaper, quicker and better in the long run.

[Digital Larry]

It's really lazy.  Next thing you'll be telling me is you play other peoples' songs too.   

[amptramp]

If the object of the exercise is to learn all the steps including layout, yes it is lazy.  If the object of the exercise is to build a pedal to a proven design so you can get it operating before the next gig, then no, using a canned layout makes perfect sense.

[karbomusic]

If the object of the exercise is to learn all the steps including layout, yes it is lazy.  If the object of the exercise is to build a pedal to a proven design so you can get it operating before the next gig, then no, using a canned layout makes perfect sense.

Right, it is entirely based on the overall goals of the builder. I'd say it's so much dependent on the goals of the builder that the only correct answer is "it depends" with a side of "maybe".   I interpreted the wording of the very first post as that of someone who wanted to, at some point, know more, not just get a pedal working which is precisely why I responded in the manner that I did. There are plenty who do nothing but download and build other's layout's which is perfectly fine if that's the goal; the only caveat is that typically results in a higher amount of hair pulling which again is fine if you have the hair to spare. YMMV.

[StephenGiles]

It's really lazy not to tuck your shirt in - appalling habit!