12volts + for pedals?

[plexi12000]

someone just posted about his pedal and higher volts....didnt want to butt in his thread...but i know you can buy 12v and 18v adapters.  does a distortion pedal, for example, really sound "better"? is it a big change from 9v?

[karbomusic]

someone just posted about his pedal and higher volts....didnt want to butt in his thread...but i know you can buy 12v and 18v adapters.  does a distortion pedal, for example, really sound "better"? is it a big change from 9v?

Since it is distorted I doubt it (unless someone else chimes in). You want the higher voltages aka headroom in a clean boost (and some other circuits) because you don't want it distorting/clipping the signal. Since the peaks of a guitar signal can exceed 1 volt or more, if you then boost that by a factor of 10 for example, then 9V simply can't supply that demand and the clean signal will be clipped.

See: http://www.muzique.com/lab/pick.htm

I do have an overdrive with a clean side that I can blend and for that reason I designed the pedal to operate between 9 and 18VDC. At 18VDC the clean boost pretty much won't ever clip (within reason).

[Jdansti]

Some folks like the sound of their fuzzes with a near dead 9V battery or they add a "dead battery" feature to dial down the voltage.

[plexi12000]

Jdansti--  yeah, i heard of ppl really diggin' the lower voltages too.  never tried it though.

karbomusic--  cool man....yeah, i understand what you are saying.

[R.G.]

This is much like asking whether you get better distortion tones by standing on your amp instead of standing in front or behind it - maybe. It depends on the individual circuit and how it reacts to the changed voltage, and - hugely - how your ears like the changes, if there are any changes.

Some circuits  change their operation drastically with changed power supply voltages, some don't change operation to any noticeable degree at all.

And at some point, you start damaging components. Some commercial pedals use 10V rated electrolytic caps that won't live long at 12 or 18V.

So - it's the circuits, not just the voltage. And there are many, many different circuits.

[petemoore]

 For analog circuits, varying the PS voltage makes 'some' difference, more detail possible with more information such as what circuit context, signal strength etc.
It becomes really obvious when the signal voltage approaches or exceeds the a +/- supply rail.
depending on the circuit, the signal strength, the power supply voltage... 'in the operational window' [9 or 18 volt supply for stompboxes...generally...allows the processing of various signals from a guitar or other 9v-18v] works fine and it can be hard to tell the difference between 9v and 12v supply, but not always, a really hot output into 'the next effect'...the ''circuit'' [broad language] recieving the really hot signal voltage sometimes ''benefits'' from running a 12v instead of 9v supply...there is no global answer to ''12v+ for pedals/''.
There are constants such as 'if your phaser is distorting when a really hot signal is applied, or when battery voltage drops, try raising the voltage...or ''this fuzz becomes spongy/less brittle sounding when the supply voltage is 6v to  7v and a hot signal from a booster running at 9v is applied, attenuation or distortion, perhaps at the ends of the bandwidth [treble and/or bass 'ducking'] occur with hard attack or hot input].
A nice thing about starting with a regulated 12v+ with ample current output, is that a few parts and regulators 7809 = 9volt regulated DC output. An LM317 can provide an adjustable regulated voltage, via a knob or even controlled by input strength [or output for that matter] varying voltage according to signal level [more parts and chips] can even be built to vary supply voltage according to signal voltage variances.
Supply voltage attenuation/boosting is in the same category as gain and pregain as far as the ability to control when, in what fashion, and how much a circuit distorts.
Most circuit design for SB's stays 'in the conventional window' which is close to or 9volts, expecting a ~used 9v battery or power supply to provide voltage.
Some circuits exhibit interesting and pleasing effects when Supply V drops low enough to matter [jfet or CMOS booster for instance], others cause [generally undesirable] signal output 'spikes' when signal voltage nears or exceeds supply.
Hard Rules: don't exceed the rated voltage on a component, rate them at 10% or more of the voltage that will be applied. Some circuits require a supply voltage be rather close to design specs to work.
 

[plexi12000]

Thanks R.G.-  i hear what you're saying.  it'd be neat to just try it for kicks....but 30 bucks for the adapter...eh, maybe sometime

[plexi12000]

thanks petemoore-   i understand what youre saying too. a LOT of variables in the "equation" for sure.  thanks for chimin in!

[Mark Hammer]

The entire raison d'être of distortion/fuzz/overdrive circuits is that they run out of headroom.  Upping the supply voltage can increase headroom under certain circumstances, which runs counter to what you want the pedal to do.  If the specific circuit incorporates an initial stage that takes advantage of greater headroom to hit a subsequent stage with a much hotter signal, then a higher supply voltage can be useful.  But that means you have tio understand yoour circuits/pedals to be able to identify where a greater supply voltage will be useful.

Alternatively, if your goal is to reduce the intensity of the overdrive effect by allowing more headroom, then a higher supply voltage is useful there, too.

But in most instances, it's not what you want.

[plexi12000]

mark hammer---  ok, i think i got ya.  thats why diodes, LEDs, etc are used in the first place...for "clipping". 

you know, that's all starting to make some sense for me.  it's like in a tube amp.....generally, a higher plate voltage can give you more headroom befor it saturates.

[vigilante397]

Add another vote to "depends on the circuit." I used to run my entire board at 12V and I liked what it did for a couple of the pedals, but obviously many of them don't matter. For example, anything using a PT2399 or a Belton brick or anything of the like will be regulated at 5V, so giving it anything more doesn't give you any benefit whatsoever. Some pedals have a charge pump (such as the Klon Centaur) to double the PS voltage, meaning they're already running higher than what you're giving them, and in some cases (including the Klon) giving it 12V will run it at 24V on the inside which could possibly damage some components.

Summary: depends on the circuit

[plexi12000]

vigilante397--- copy that.  thanks for you input.   its just amazing how much there is to 'electronics'.  so many little 'factors'.  makes my little pea brain spin.


Did i mention you cats are SMART?!  dang.............  hahaha

[plexi12000]

you know....i wish we had a "like" button for forum posts- lol....like facebook does.  that would be cool-

[vigilante397]

you know....i wish we had a "like" button for forum posts- lol....like facebook does.  that would be cool-

I've thought that so many times I would pretty much like everything RG, pickdropper, Mark Hammer, and Dead Astronaut have ever posted.

[Jdansti]

^Like

[mrsuspend]

Since I was probably the one with the original thread I'd just like to add that I don't normally "overpower" pedals, it's just that this specific Small Clone build sounded much better with 12 volts...
Whether all Small Clones sound better or just Tonepad's, or possibly just Tonepad's with my specific mods, I couldn't say... but I did check the cap ratings before I tried it!

/Magnus

[Beo]

My second pedal build was a Ross Compressor, and it would distort on loud notes/chords. Took a while to figure out I was hitting the rails, and a 11-12v supply cured the problem. I now use this as my standard supply for my board, and I use 9v and 5v regulators in any pedals that need it. Regulators can sometimes be a good way to filter lfo noise from carrying through a chained power supply into other pedals, but I have 1 vibe pedal that must have its own independent supply.

[vigilante397]

My second pedal build was a Ross Compressor, and it would distort on loud notes/chords. Took a while to figure out I was hitting the rails, and a 11-12v supply cured the problem. I now use this as my standard supply for my board, and I use 9v and 5v regulators in any pedals that need it. Regulators can sometimes be a good way to filter lfo noise from carrying through a chained power supply into other pedals, but I have 1 vibe pedal that must have its own independent supply.

Excellent point, compressors are a great example of a situation where you consistently want more clean headroom.

[induction]

I've tried 18V on several dirt pedals, just to see, and I can sometimes hear the difference (depends on the circuit, of course), and sometimes not at all. The only dirt pedal that I run at 18V all the time is my Catalinbread Formula #5 clone. For that pedal, 18V makes it way more responsive to the volume knob of my tele. I can dial-in edge of breakup and then crank up the dirt very easily. At 9V, even with the gain at minimum, it's too close to meltdown at every setting of my volume knob. With my Les Paul, the difference between 9V and 18V is less dramatic, but still useful.

Edit:
EQ pedals can sometimes benefit from higher voltage, depending on the design. Passive tone stacks lose a lot of volume, so they need to be boosted. If you boost before the tone stack you get less noise than if you boost afterwards, because of S/N considerations, but you also run the risk of clipping the pre-gain stage. Higher headroom can be useful here.

[antonis]

I've tried the following push-pull arangement (copied from the Glass Blower MKII Booster) on a fuzz pedal with booster in it for a more headroom clean boost and it worked just fine...!!!
(I had clean boosting like one running at 12V ...)



P.S.
I've also followed the suggestion for IC biased closer to 5V (with a 22k/27k voltage divider) for avoiding op amps tendency for asymerical clipping...