wah pedal...do i need a "buffer"?

[plexi12000]

i'd like to build me a nice fuzz....and was talking to my gear geek friend.  he says i should have an output buffer for my wah?  seems backwards to me....if i place my wah after a fuzz....wouldnt i need an input buffer? -lol

i'm all confused.  i have a crappy dunlop cry baby....i guess it would be a major hassle to try to incorporate a buffer in that?   

you guys have any thoughts, recommendations....i'd sure appreciate it.    have a great weekend everybody!

[GibsonGM]

Great question, plexi!

Some people really like a buffer after their wah & before their fuzz (doesn't matter if it's in the wah, or a separate pedal).  It will stop the fuzz from "sucking the tone" out of your signal...the FF has a low input impedance that 'eats' your highs somewhat if there's no buffer.

Now, other people just put a 10k resistor in series with their output jack on the wah, which will alleviate this quite a bit, IMO.

I never used anything at all, nor did Jimi and the other guitar gods, that I'm aware of.  If your FF has a smallish input cap, you may not notice a thing.

I suggest you just hook your stuff up, play it, and see if you like it.   If not, then WHY don't you like it?  Then repost here   You might LOVE it.

A lot of ppl put the wah first (that's what I do), so they're not 'wahing their fuzz', but that's also a personal choice.   Maybe try it both ways.   Wah AFTER fuzz really shouldn't cause any troubles, I'd think....no "tone sucking" as long as what comes next is highish input Z....

[induction]

It's not about tone-sucking at all. A wah before a fuzz face simply doesn't work without a buffer. It squeals like a pig and doesn't wah. Try it. There's no way Jimi or anybody else did this without a mod, reversing the pedal order, or using a tonebender instead of a fuzz face.

If you put an output buffer on the wah, it will work, but it will not sound like a fuzz face anymore. It will be very trebly and harsh because the fuzz face is designed to be fed a signal with a high-ish output Z. That's where the inline resistor comes in. It increases the output impedance back to the level of a guitar pickup.

But, I agree, if you put the wah after the fuzz, you don't need to add any buffers.

[GibsonGM]

Hmmm...I've done it, many times in fact.  Are you SURE nobody else has done this?  "Simply doesn't work"  I find it hard to believe I'm this one in a million that didn't have a useless wah when using a FF.

All I did AFTER the fact was add a 10k resistor to the wah's output, and it made it quieter,yes.   Used it with no mods for several years before adding that resistor...then again, mine's a 70s crybaby, perhaps that made some "difference"?  It's not a 'crappy Dunlop', lol.  The wah was a repro FF, ya know, the round enclosure.   Different with different fuzzes? *shrug*

Guess it depends on how much drive you've got set on the FF?   Also HOW you use it?


**EDIT**   This guy has a video up that explains the impedance interactions very well:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qflxn6jxXA

My 'bad effects' experience WAS tone-sucking, but wahs do that a little anyway (non true bypass).

Maybe my ability to use the Dunlop fuzz was that it was newer?  Got it secondhand, maybe someone modded something in it.  Didn't fart out, but also didn't oscillate with my wah.  Don't remember if it was Ge or Si.

If in doubt, a buffer is VERY easy to put at the output of a wah....I'd just plug in and see if you need one!

[induction]

Guess it depends on how much drive you've got set on the FF?   Also HOW you use it?
I don't EVER turn on a dist. pedal or fuzz until I play.   Sit there quietly with it on, and of course it's going to make noise!!

This is what I'm talking about:
(Edit: The link you put above is what I was going to put here.)

It's a well known problem, and I would respectfully disagree that the screeching heard in the video can be referred to as 'tone-suck'. It's oscillation, and if you run a Crybaby into a stock fuzz face with the Fuzz control all the way up (which is the setting preferred by a great many people), you should expect it. (I never turn my Fuzz control down below max, so I don't know if that helps with the oscillation or not.)

I would be willing to bet that this is what the OP's friend was referring to. It's a common problem with most wahs before fuzz faces. There are dozens of threads about the issue on this very forum, many of which you (Mike) have contributed to yourself.

Some wahs are more fuzz friendly than the Crybaby (by having built in output buffers, I assume), and many fuzzes are more wah friendly than the fuzz face (some have input buffers, and others are just different topologies that don't have this problem).

The inline resistor thing probably works. Pinkjimi swears by it, but I found it decreases the fuzz too much. The buffer definitely works, but has its own impact on the tone. I just use a Tonebender MkII and avoid the whole issue. (It doesn't seem to mind the buffer so much.)

If you want to add an inline resistor, an easy way to do it would be to add a Fuller-style Smooth pot, ie a 50k or 100k pot wired as variable resistor before the input cap of the fuzz face. This also helps get rid of the hum often you get when you turn your guitar volume all the way down. Or you can try a different fuzz circuit. I recommend you breadboard it before you build it to see if you like what you get.

That all being said, maybe my 'nobody has ever...' comment was a bit too broad. Generalizations are always wrong. (See what I did there?) But I will say that I have never heard Jimi or any other classic guitar hero make those screeching noises on a recording.

Edit:
You edited your post before I finished typing, so maybe all of this is unecessary now. I'm going to leave it here anyway because, well, just because.

[GibsonGM]

S'ok, you are right - the buffer is CERTAINLY a well-known, well-used and well-loved item relating to FF's!    For all I know, someone got in mine in 1977 and put a resistor in    Thomas Organ Co. Crybaby....also, the time I spent piloting a Dunlop FF was brief...I didn't like the mid scoop (don't like Muffs except for recording - gets lost on stage, IMHO), and I tended to not use it on 10.    I've heard live Hendrix stuff where he was making god-awful howls and screeches, and this may be why (?).  Or he was just being Jimi, ha ha...   

I understand exactly what you meant, Induction - the non-ideal out and in Z's create a resonant circuit that can or will self-oscillate...and yup, my experiences also show that to be the case, altho when actively playing it wasn't some tragic event (in my experience only).     That's why I went in and added the resistor - to the FUZZ input, in retrospect.    Maybe I was just increasing what was already there in the wah?   The 'tone sucking' refers more to a slight LPF effect that some wahs seem to have at the INPUT....maybe it's just me again, but I feel my axe is less shrill just leaving the thing non true BP and letting it take some (very) high crap out.   I shoulda specified, too, that wah >> FF is actually tinny and weird (sitar) - I identified that as 'tone sucking', but maybe there's another term for it.

For 25 cents, a person can whip up a nice output buffer and wire it right in.  I should be clear my thoughts are, and will remain, that if anyone has any negative feelings about how their wah sounds with a fuzz, just do it      If you don't like it, *snip snip* it's gone.  But you probably WILL like it.

[Gus]

It is not a buffer issue

The FF has a Q2 E to Q1 B feedback/bias resistor this is like a C to B Feedback/part of the bias resistor in other gain stages

The first stage Q1 of the FF gain is a combination of
the open loop gain of Q1
with the feedback/part of the bias, resistor divided by what is before the FF(guitar RLC or another effect).  Look up inverting opamp circuits for what happens with a high open loop gain

when the effect before has a lower than guitar output resistance the first stage gain of the FF is set higher

So this is one reason you will sometimes see a variable series resistor at the input of some FF like circuits
Also look at the first stage of a BMP there is a series input to the base (maybe designed) to help control the first stage gain (it has a C to B resistor) when not connected to a passive guitar or bass or

Look at the common wha circuit, when the wha control wiper is closer to the gain stage collector the output resistance is lower from the wha

[GibsonGM]

"All I did AFTER the fact was add a 10k resistor to the wah's output, and it made it quieter,yes." 

That's one solution.  A buffer is the other.  Having the shell open, it takes all of 15 seconds to connect a resistor and try it out.  Then you don't have to wire in a buffer. 
If it doesn't work, then maybe you do.   

Nice explanation, Gus....

[plexi12000]

that was a good discussion!!  thanks-  yeah....honestly, i dont think i EVER put a wah before a fuzz-  hahaha  i just realized that. 

Induction mentioned using a tone bender mkII and avoid the problem....that might be the ticket for me.  that'll make life easier!  thanks for the comments--!