simple hpf as lead..eh..lift for high gain amps?

[Johan]

Any one have any experience with this or thoughts on the topic?
So I play a les Paul through a jcm2000 amp.  The format is trio ( drums, bass and guitar )
The set up is quite bass heavy but sounds fantastic when it's just me but in the band seting i feel the leads sometimes get a little lost.  I don't really need more gain and since the rhythm guitar by definition disappears when the leads take over, i don't think i should need more volume either.( besides,  boosting a high gain amp only gives more distortion)
so i was thinking a simple hpf in form of a cap with a roll off around 150-200hz could let my speakers clear up a little if i switch it in for leads.  It would be easy enough to try, but my amp is looked up a rehearsal studio complex at the moment, so for now I'm basicly thinking out loud

any one having any experience or thoughts on this?

Thanks
j

[GibsonGM]

I think some form of EQ in your chain (at the end of your effects just before the amp?) might give you an answer.  This is a neat idea...the increase in low end may make your "apparent presence" in the music a little more out in front.   Give it a try!  A simple EQ pedal would let you know, and you can then build something around the idea, plus you can find out what frequencies are most favorable.  Not sure about how this could encourage blocking distortion, but you can try it out and you'll have an answer quickly

I would suggest taking a look at MIDS rather than just bass...my experience has been that I 'am most in the mix' when I add more mids.  It is a compromise between hard and crunchy/mid scoop, but retaining enough to be heard and have enough punch...

[Johan]

Thanks.  I was thinking of CUTTING bass to leave more room for highs and mids. Not boosting... a little bit like "too much bass in a mix makes the mix muddy"..making the leads stand out by cutting the lows
j

[Keppy]

so i was thinking a simple hpf in form of a cap with a roll off around 150-200hz could let my speakers clear up a little if i switch it in for leads.

Many overdrives cut bass before or within the gain stage, so your basic idea is a reasonable one. You'd get more consistent results if you buffered the filter, and as a bonus you could use a pot to make it variable. If you already have a buffered pedal in your chain, you could do this passively.

Bear in mind that a cap alone won't get you a reliable filter unless you factor in the input impedance of your amp. You need an inline cap followed by a resistor (or pot, or combination) to ground. To be effective, this resistor should be considerably smaller than the impedance of your amp (or whatever you plug it into), so <100k.

[GibsonGM]

Thanks.  I was thinking of CUTTING bass to leave more room for highs and mids. Not boosting... a little bit like "too much bass in a mix makes the mix muddy"..making the leads stand out by cutting the lows
j

AH, ok!  Yes, what Keppy is thinking.  I was out until the early hours at a gig last night and I'm still foggy, ha ha.   I'd try a passive filter this way, to see if it sounds kind of like what I want. Also, I would be aware that I may suffer a (admittedly small) loss of volume, so would be prepared to do an opamp HPF or something like that to recover it if necessary.   

It's a good idea.  Every boost I make for lead work involves trimming some bass as well. 

[ashcat_lt]

Bear in mind that a cap alone won't get you a reliable filter unless you factor in the input impedance of your amp. You need an inline cap followed by a resistor (or pot, or combination) to ground. To be effective, this resistor should be considerably smaller than the impedance of your amp (or whatever you plug it into), so <100k.

Course, if it's not buffered first, you will start to lose treble if that R to ground is too small.  It'll be a lot like turning down the T pot on the guitar itself.  Ideally, I think, the filter would be buffered on either side

[Johan]

Thanks guys
inconsistency is not really an issue.  My rig has been consistent for years now.  It goes guitar>wha>tuner>amp and when i play on other amps than my own, i use a clone of the jcm2000 preamp and plug into the loop return of the borrowed amp
since rig is consistent,  a simple cap across a push pull pot would do. Execution is not the issue,  the question is if it will lift the leads in the band mix, through clarity rather than change in volume or if it will do nothing worth the trouble.  Again if my amp was here it would be easy to try, but it'll be until end of the week before I can try and play at that volume level again
j

[Digital Larry]

Here's an article about modding your guitar for the end result:

http://tonefiend.com/guitar/two-band-ptb-tone-control-useful-easy-cheap-awesome/

[Johan]

Thanks.  That blog or whatever it is seems to at least
partly confirm my idea as viable way of getting leads to cut through without applying boosts or od's
.. so push pull pot It is then.
j

[deafbutpicky]

I'd say a treble booster is easier to integrate in your setup. As said cutting bass leads to less gain
from the overdrive stages following. So you might cut bass and push the overall volume for a more defined
sound without loosing the gain set beforehand.

The idea posted by Digital Larry works the opposite way.

I use a "range master" work alike (naga viper) for what you mentioned.
Adjustable bass cut and control over the boost (and in case of the naga, extra dirt)...

[wavley]

The Fender Jaguar and Bass VI both have a strangle switch that cuts lows with a series cap in between the pickup selectors and Vol/Tone circuit.  Personally, I thought the knee was too high on mine and upped the value from stock a little bit until I got what I wanted on my Jag Baritone Custom (which tunes an octave down so it's actually more like a Bass VI than a B to B baritone), I'm getting ready to do it to my new Squier VI and a while back I switched to series/parallel switching for my regular jag and used the strangle switch as a phase reverse for my bridge, I find the sounds to be useless out of phase so I'm going to put the strangle back in because I could actually use a bass cut when in series mode.

[ashcat_lt]

Series Out Of Phase doesn't work for you?  I kind of like it for a bright, nasty lead tone on some things.

I kind of agree with the above, though.  The low frequencies that you're looking to cut are really the bulk of the signal on the lower half of the neck, so if you cut them you will end up with less overall distortion.  A treble booster is probably a better option.

[midwayfair]

Set up your amp to sound good for leads on the bridge pickup by turning down the bass and turning up the treble, and then switch to the neck pickup for rhythm with the volume turned down. There should be a huge range of tonal difference between them.

This is why the LP has separate volume and tone controls, after all.

[Johan]

Thanks but.
.. The problem only occurs with my new custom shop -58 les Paul, which is not weight reliefed and has considerably more low end than my other gibson les Pauls.
I don't need more gain and the dsl is a high gain amp where the eq sits after the high gain pre, so turning down the lows on the eq doesn't help.  All that extra low end turn my high gain amp into a fuzz box when it is glorious with the other guitars. I don't need more gain. All I need is to cut lows on this specific instrument before it goes into the amp. For next session I've built a simple rc hpf, with 40, 80 120 and 160 hz to be placed after my tuner ( driven by low z, more predictable)..We'll see how it goes... Did I say I don't need more gain? 
j

[midwayfair]

Thanks but.
.. The problem only occurs with my new custom shop -58 les Paul, which is not weight reliefed and has considerably more low end than my other gibson les Pauls.
I don't need more gain and the dsl is a high gain amp where the eq sits after the high gain pre, so turning down the lows on the eq doesn't help.  All that extra low end turn my high gain amp into a fuzz box when it is glorious with the other guitars. I don't need more gain. All I need is to cut lows on this specific instrument before it goes into the amp. For next session I've built a simple rc hpf, with 40, 80 120 and 160 hz to be placed after my tuner ( driven by low z, more predictable)..We'll see how it goes... Did I say I don't need more gain? 
j

In that case ... where is the gain on the amp set? Where are you setting your guitar's volume controls set? Are you switching guitars in the middle of a set that you have to worry about the amp settings being different between guitars?

You do still have two tubes and the (VERY distorted) phase inverter after the bass control. The bass control should cut as much as 30dB from the low end, which is more cut than you'll get from a guitar. The first two stages together are down ~12dB at 100Hz compared 1K, so there's already a pretty significant bass cut before the tone stack.

I still think you can do this with different amp settings before you start adding a pedal ... they might be very odd looking amp settings, but this is not an amp lacking in control over the gain structure and EQ in any way.

[MrStab]

FWIW, before i knew what the hell i was doing (well, still don't), i followed a recommendation on a forum and put a Tung-Sol 12AX7 in the V1 position, which made my JCM2000 a hell of a lot more trebbly. that and a Tube Screamer salvage the darkness of Invader pickups in 2 guitars, and make leads cut through my bassist's chords much better. so maybe it's not for everybody (it's not all about that bass for me...), but worth trying out.