Buying a used oscillocope (Hitachi v152)

[Keeb]

I've found an oscilloscope for sale locally and I'm wondering if I should go for it or not. The scope in question is a Hitachi v152. Let me start with saying that I have no experience using a scope and I don't really know what to look for. When searching for information online it seems like any scope will be good enough for pedal and audio use. I would be using it primarily for analysing and understanding circuits and, when I'm used to the scope, maybe try to calibrate phasers/flangers. In the future I might move on to amplifiers I guess but if I buy this scope it would be for pedal use.

You can find the user manual here (slow site): https://sonsofinvention.wordpress.com/2013/02/14/hitachi-v-152f-oscilloscope-operation-manual/

Here's a screenshot of the specs from the manual (so you don't have to load it all): http://i.imgur.com/sGpJREr.png

I'm guessing this would satisfy my needs although being analogue, and an older, piece of equipment.

So my questions to you more experienced users are:

-Would this scope be good enough?

-It doesn't come with probes. Are these suitable? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Two-P6100-DC-100MHZ-Oscilloscope-Scope-Clip-Probe-100MHz-For-Tektronix-HP-HC-/251713130488?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3a9b458ff8

Any insight appreciated!

[GibsonGM]

I'm not a scope guru by any means, but I think the real questions are "how much", and "does it work properly"?

If it's reasonably priced and works correctly, that's for sure a good entry-level pedal and general hobby scope.  You won't be doing advanced functions with it - this is an older, basic scope.  But if that's what you are looking for, then it's fine!   Most of us don't need or want to shell out $3,000 for a state of the art instrument, most of whose functions we'll never need or use.  You'll want to assure yourself that it works, and that the screen isn't burned in/failing - they didn't have screen savers back then    Some of them have 'humming' power supplies, which doesn't affect anything.

For reference, I got a Tektronix 2213, 60MHZ, from 1982 for $99 (US), shipped, from Ebay.  It was $2,000 in 1982.   I had to fix a diode in it to get both channels working, but given what we do here that was easy.   I got lucky  - it was very clean internally, probably came from a college.  So, if one looks, they are out there for cheap money.

If you can get the Hitachi for a good price, WORKING (both channels), I would say yes.  All the caveats related to CRT's apply - check for jittering, burned phosphor, etc.  Definitely step thru the settings using the CAL function, or something else, to be sure it works - read up on this quickly so you can test it!  Or make the seller show you.  Dual trace, and good enough resolution to watch signal action thru circuits, see the clipping and so on...

The probes will be fine for pedals and entry-level amp work.  At these low frequencies we don't need the fancy ones. 

[duck_arse]

all wot gibson says, yes.

I have a V-212, which would be the next step up from yours. I bougt mine for around 1k$ about 1989. if you can, ask the seller to demonstrate that the trigger works, both slopes, both modes. also see both channels working, if you can.

any probe/s you can afford will be ok for that machine. how much is the asking for the v152?

my machine has had tricky trigger for a long time now, and it has lost channel two. I've been inside, and to do any solder, you need to pull everything out, 2 big boards, wiring harnesses, all the front panel. there will be a thread appearing soon, don't miss it!

[Keeb]

I've emailed the seller about the condition of the scope and am awaiting a reply.

He's actually selling another scope as well, a HAMEG HM 203-6 20Mhz. Manual here -second link on list: http://www.hameg.com/manuals.0.html?tx_hmdownloads_pi1%5Bpage%5D=4&tx_hmdownloads_pi1..=.

He's asking $60 for the Hitachi scope and $120 for the Hameg one. This might seem like a lot of money but since I'm living in the northern parts of Sweden the dollar prices might be a bit misleading. There aren't a lot of scopes for sale and shipping costs makes eBay almost impossible. Using the Big Mac Index instead...  It equates to about 8 Big Macs for the Hitachi one and about 16 Big macs for the Hameg one.

I've only been assuming that almost any oscilloscope will do the trick and it's easy to go above and beyond in terms of specs.

Assuming that both scopes are fully functional - does the Hameg seem like a better deal?

[GibsonGM]

The Hameg is better.   Looks a bit more sensitive, by comparing the data sheets.  I bet it's better constructed, too.   *of course provided both are fully functional *    I've always gone with "a little more than I need" for this sort of thing.  My scope, also old of course, is a 60MHz, which I chose over a 20MHz available at that time.   Not that I'll ever want to LOOK at a 60MHz signal...but you never know!   I felt that maybe it was 'better made', more top-end, as both were from the same time period. 

I found that my 60MHz scope works VERY VERY well at the lower Hz we work with.  Does the resolution at lower F get better as the scope's resolution increases? Not really sure.   Tektronix was (is) a well-regarded company.  And on that note, Hameg beats Hitachi, too!     

For the extra Big Mac's, I would get the Hameg, if it were me buying    The buyer may be trying to say something with the prices, too... "I'll let this one go cheap, it's a little dodgy but ok.   This Hameg is a NICE one, so I'm asking more".  Either will get the job done for DIY pedals, but I like solid equipment...

Just my 2 cents - what do you think, Duck?

[tca]

> I've found an oscilloscope for sale locally and I'm wondering if I should go for it or not. The scope in question is a Hitachi v152. Let me start with saying that I have no experience using a scope and I don't really know what to look for. When searching for information online it seems like any scope will be good enough for pedal and audio use. I would be using it primarily for analysing and understanding circuits and, when I'm used to the scope, maybe try to calibrate phasers/flangers. In the future I might move on to amplifiers I guess but if I buy this scope it would be for pedal use.

A scope is a good thing to have, you'll learn a lot about real electronics when used with a  breadboard. One of the things that I like to do is to compare the sims with the real circuit. Sometimes is faster to breadboard something and see the results on the scope than with a sim program! You should get, after the scope, a signal generator.

If the scope works at it should, go for it.

Cheers.

[GibsonGM]

Yes, a signal generator!  First, you may decide to build R.G.'s "quick and dirty oscillator", found at GeoFex (link above...).  This will give you a nice nearly-sine wav to input to your pedals, so you can view how the signal changes.   A nice replacement for strumming your guitar

Later, you'd want a real function generator to have much more control over the input frequency, wave shape, etc...I still haven't picked one up - I do the old school method of using circuits like square wave generators to do all that.  It's messy.   

[PRR]

'Scope is useful. Do not fret about performance. My ultra-cheap (for H-P) 120B is plenty good for audio. (Or would be, if it hadn't been so roughed-up in the scrap-metal dump.) Lower price is often better. Less frills to get in your way, and more cash for other stuff you need.

For 9V audio work you do not need probes, only a PROPER connector. (There are multiple "BNC" fittings and they do not quite interchange.) Yes, at today's from-Asia prices, just get probe, but also clip-leads because they are much easier to use in most builds.

You NEED a signal source. Audio generator is classic. R.G.'s fake string plucker is maybe more useful for most guitar-box work. Both is not over-kill. (Some "thin/dull tone" is simple Frequency Response, and the audio generator will proof that quickly.)

[duck_arse]

well now, the hamag looks about the same except for switch layouts, and the component tester (?), dunno it's worth twice tho, for what you'll be using. explain to the seller, ask if you can see both at same time. which one can you find a trace on? which one can you trigger? which one can you drive?

and if you're not a rich person, seller might have a sig gen to suit, you might get V-152 and siggen for the cost of the hameg.

your waistline will thank you for all those uneaten big maxs. and a cro is more fun than hamburgers.

[Keeb]

Thanks for all the info guys!

So, the seller never got back to me... But! Just a couple of hours after I started the thread someone put out an ad for another scope - the same model hitachi scope. Including three probes and the user manual(and just for $10 more.). So I bought that and am now trying to get acquainted with all the functions. I had already built RG's audio oscillator and am using that but might go for a function generator later on. Thank you all again!

[GibsonGM]

Let us know how it works out for you Keeb, and what you're doing with your new equipment! 

Check out "Lissjous patterns" and "octopus" online when you get set up, fun things to mess with at first. 
Careful with mains connections if you do the octopus; don't over step your experience level. Be sure ANY connection you may touch is safely insulated!

[Keeb]

Thanks!

I've measured RG's oscillator's sine wave! It was about 2 Vpp (so it's only about 0,7 Vrms instead of 1 Vrms as the document states).
At the moment I've hooked it up to my Insanity Box (a distortion pedal by Aron) and feeding it with RG's oscillator. I'm getting a signal that's 2,5 times the amplitude and more of a shark fin than a sine wave. The gain control shapes the wave a bit and the level control increases the amplitude. As expected I guess. The biggest difference is the tone control though... It makes it go from the shark fin type wave to a sqaure wave (and beyond!).

I'm guessing this is an effect of feeding a single tone? It seems a 1 kHz signal would mostly be affected by the tone control (and the more treble you send through the more it can distort...?). I built the pedal long ago and modded the tone section with trimpots and what not so I have no idea where the cutoff is...

Having a blast so far! Later on I'll scope a Zombie chorus I have. It has a problem with a, sort of, white noise (even when battery powered). No ticking which seems to be the common problem... I'll definitely check out your suggestions Gibson!

Looking for function generators on eBay there seems to be a lot of pocket sized models and also the "workbench size". Still haven't decided on that yet...

[GibsonGM]

So you're already off and running, great!  I found a little variation in R.G.'s circuit, too - probably from using different transistors.  The output is a little low, but that just reflects the magnitude of a typical guitar's output.  I might add a gain stage to that at some point, or just buy a real function generator, as you are.  I've lived without one for too long!    Either type would work (pocket or bench), your call...even your computer can generate waves up to 20kHz or so!   (hint: search for Visual Analyser 8....it's free).    Mostly I just go with the near 1kHz signal for audio testing. 

You're correct about the single frequency producing the results you viewed - of course, there are reactances there that work with R"s and Z's to change the wave as you play with tone controls.   It's neat to see what that looks like!   Esp if you know the cutoff and tune the filter towards it, noting your signal decrease in dB as you approach...you can find unknown cutoffs using the fnx generator this way.   Inductor values, too....and more.

[Mike2E]

Make sure before you do any adjustments on 1:10 you always check the probe on the calibrator output on the scope for a square wave. If it has front edge overshoot or droop adjust the probe cap. Lissajous is only good for adjusting one signal to be the same frequency as another.
The scope is the best tool for fault finding. Check for a Tektronix article called XYZ of oscilloscopes. It's a quick guide. I refer all the students I get to this

[Mike2E]

Make sure before you do any adjustments on 1:10 you always check the probe on the calibrator output on the scope for a square wave. If it has front edge overshoot or droop adjust the probe cap. Lissajous is only good for adjusting one signal to be the same frequency as another.
The scope is the best tool for fault finding. Check for a Tektronix article called XYZ of oscilloscopes. It's a quick guide. I refer all the students I get to this

[GibsonGM]

Good call, Mike. 
Your manual should tell you about adjusting the probes...also, there's a little paper that comes with the cheapies, and a non-metallic screwdriver to do this...only need to adjust them periodically, in my experience.

Lissajous patterns are just cool to look at   Demonstrate what different frequency ratios look like when compared to each other (1:1, 1:2, etc).   I wouldn't bother try to use them for real 'work', though, as a frequency counter is sure cheap enough these days!

[slacker]

This guy has some great scope tutorials https://www.youtube.com/user/w2aew?feature=watch well worth checking out.

[Keeb]

Make sure before you do any adjustments on 1:10 you always check the probe on the calibrator output on the scope for a square wave. If it has front edge overshoot or droop adjust the probe cap.

Yeah I did this according to the manual before I started. How often is it needed?

Check for a Tektronix article called XYZ of oscilloscopes. It's a quick guide. I refer all the students I get to this

This guy has some great scope tutorials https://www.youtube.com/user/w2aew?feature=watch well worth checking out.

Thanks! I'll check those out.

[Mike2E]

Make sure before you do any adjustments on 1:10 you always check the probe on the calibrator output on the scope for a square wave. If it has front edge overshoot or droop adjust the probe cap.

Yeah I did this according to the manual before I started. How often is it needed?

[/quote]
Just once,  if used on the same scope. 
Sometimes people use probes on other scopes and then if moved back to the original scope give bad response.
I just check mine before use, (takes a second or 2), just to be sure it's OK. I also when using a meter, put it to ohms, and it reads close to zero every day before using.
Over the years I have been caught out because a probe lead fails.
On a meter it is also a safety thing if working on high voltages.

[GibsonGM]

Also, if you ever go playing with high voltage (please know what's up before you do)  - CHECK YOUR PROBE RATINGS.  On your meter, too. Many are limited to 300V, and tube amps can often be higher voltage than that....