Baldwin Burns Buzzaround vs Tone Bender MKII

[saboteur1000]

Hi.
Would like to order an old germanium fuzz pedal from scratch for myself. Looking for classic Robert Fripp cello sound, just like in "Starless" song. Now I can't choose between two schematics - Baldwin Burns Buzzaround or Tone Bender MKII. Please tell me the difference in sound between them? What will be more sounding like a cello, dense and long sustained? And which one can give me more flexibility in sound at all (cleans up well and so on). Thanks a lot.
These are schematics I prepared to send to a pedal builder (hope they are correct):
Buzzaround - MKII -

[Rob Strand]

Check out youtube.

[radio]

I do this Robert Fripp sound by putting a Tubescreamer clone in front of the Buzzaround then it sings without ending.

[smallbearelec]

Would like to order an old germanium fuzz pedal from scratch for myself. I can't choose between two schematics - Baldwin Burns Buzzaround or Tone Bender MKII. These are schematics I prepared to send to a pedal builder (hope they are correct):

Anyone who would agree to do this project for you would have to spend moocho time setting up on breadboard and tweaking to your liking. Why not buy a breadboard, learn to use it and roll-your-own? If you can get the effect you want on the breadboard, you then have the choice of attempting the build on your own or asking someone to build-and-box.

Differences:

The Buzzaround has a tone stack and the MK II does not. But the MK II has an input buffer that makes sure that the second stage is always saturated. I suspect that would give you more sustain. Possibility: Add the MK II input buffer to a Buzzaround. Again, however, this really should be tried out on breadboard first.

NB re the transistors:

I can't supply the NKT213. I'm out of OC75s; will get more in a few weeks, but they will cost an arm-and-a-leg because they have become very scarce. I have lots of other devices that will work, so don't fall for the hype and pay too much attention to part numbers.

[saboteur1000]

Thanks for your posts.
I've already seen all noticeable records on youtube and it seems that the Buzzaround has a way more tones but more less sustain. And I wonder how Fripp could use it (if it's true) getting such impressively long notes. On the other way the MKII seems to have a really huge sustain but also it seems to lack sound variety.
So I thought exactly about that - if they could be mixed. Thanks for the "input buffer to Buzzaround" idea, smallbearelec, you got my enquiry absolutely right. The pedal guy I'm going to have a deal with is very experienced in this business and he has already made a ton of pedal clones, so I hope everything's gonna be OK. I just don't think I could make such a thing myself so I choose to pay.
One more question. Does MKII clean up anyhow with a volume knob (in the case if the pedals' mixing won't be possible)? Thanks again.

P.S. I also have an overdrive pedal, so maybe it will be enough to put it before the Buzzaround to get that long notes, just like radio does, without modifying the schematic?

[smallbearelec]

I just don't think I could make such a thing myself so I choose to pay.

The breadboarding part Is doable by a careful beginner, but the boxing is a much steeper learning curve.

Does MKII clean up anyhow with a volume knob (in the case if the pedals' mixing won't be possible)?

A cleanup control for this kind of circuit is usually a pot in Series with the input. But you should be able to get what you want, regardless. See next answer.

I also have an overdrive pedal, so maybe it will be enough to put it before the Buzzaround to get that long notes, just like radio does, without modifying the schematic?

Note that one of the other posters said that he uses a TS in front of the Buzzaround to get long sustain? Your overdrive might just do the trick.

[Electric Warrior]

These are schematics I prepared to send to a pedal builder (hope they are correct):
MKII -

Two inaccuracies in the MKII schematic: Pedals with OC75s usually had a 10k on Q1's base and a 47k on Q2's collector, pedals with OC81Ds mostly used 100k in both spots. The OC81D variant probably needed larger resistors to make up for less leaky transistors.

Voltage readings in both variants are pretty much identical, i.e. roughly between 8 and over 9V for Q1C, between 0.13 and and 0.22V for Q2C and between 8 and 9V for Q3C.

Does MKII clean up anyhow with a volume knob (in the case if the pedals' mixing won't be possible)?

A MKII may or may not clean up with the volume knob, depending on transistor selection. The ones that do clean up tend to lose that ability when it's hot, giving you a range of fuzz sounds on your guitars volume control - or in extreme cases gating. A little gating can sound great in that circuit, though.

[saboteur1000]

Many thanks for your advices and explanations, guys.
Electric Warrior, thanks for pointing mistakes in the MKII schematic, smallbearelec, thanks for approving of the way when overdrive can be used before fuzz for boosting. I just worry if an overdrive pedal can somehow color output tone with its sound.
Electric Warrior, what a schematic would you advise in the case of the MKII? I've just specially looked for a non-professional version, 'cos according to youtube videos MKII pro versions seem sounding more rude and thin than MKII with no pro mark.

[Electric Warrior]

Non professional version? You mean the MK1.5? That would be this one:



For a MKII, these will do:

[saboteur1000]

Thanks for correct schematics, Electric Warrior. But the Tone Bender MKII and the Tone Bender Professional MKII are different beasts. Look up this youtube' demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbBAI-BuP4M

[Electric Warrior]

Nah, referring to one of them as the "Professional" version is BS. Both say Professional MKII. He doesn't explain which is which, but I guess the one with the Vox style print has OC75s and their mods (100k on Q1 base, 33k on Q2 collector, like the schematic you linked), which makes it sound overly compressed and makes the Attack pot do very little. Vintage MKIIs weren't biased like this.

The one with the Sola Sound style print probably has new production OC81Ds, which tend to have low hfes. I believe they have the 33k/100k bias setup as well.
I wouldn't expect any of their MKIIs to sound and behave like a vintage unit. Their Supa fuzz should be closer. It had OC75s and the 10k on Q1's base, like it's supposed to. Still had the 33k..

[saboteur1000]

Electric Warrior, thanks for explanation. I'll make a note of it.
Also I've just been offered a 3-knob MKIII for $50. As I remember the MKIII seems to have the same circuit as the Buzzaround, doesn't it?

[Electric Warrior]

It's based on the same topology, but they're not quite the same. The Buzzaround's Balance control should give you a wider range of different tones.

[saboteur1000]

Just got the photos of the pedal I'm offered:

[saboteur1000]

It's based on the same topology, but they're not quite the same. The Buzzaround's Balance control should give you a wider range of different tones.

So you mean the Buzzaround is worth to refuse the offered MKIII?

[Electric Warrior]

It depends on which tone you like better.

Check out the MKIII to see how you like it. The sound depends a lot on the specs of the transistors, especially Q3's leakage reading, so it's impossible to tell if it sounds good.

[saboteur1000]

Decided to go on with the BBB version. Probably with the input buffer if possibly. By the way, can it be made with a switch turning it on/off? I just don't want to lose more sustain and also I'm afraid that an overdrive pedal can color output sound. So I'd prefer use them separately. I just think that overdrive pedals has their own frequency filters changing the input sound of a guitar, so the sound after fuzz can turn out pretty different. Or am I wrong about it?

[radio]

Probably it does, but I didn't push the drive too far,maybe a LPB1 would have done the trick too.

I don't have one so I didn't try. Furthermore I did this at home and didn't push the amp.

Regards JM

[LightSoundGeometry]

I just don't think I could make such a thing myself so I choose to pay.

The breadboarding part Is doable by a careful beginner, but the boxing is a much steeper learning curve.

Does MKII clean up anyhow with a volume knob (in the case if the pedals' mixing won't be possible)?

A cleanup control for this kind of circuit is usually a pot in Series with the input. But you should be able to get what you want, regardless. See next answer.

I also have an overdrive pedal, so maybe it will be enough to put it before the Buzzaround to get that long notes, just like radio does, without modifying the schematic?

Note that one of the other posters said that he uses a TS in front of the Buzzaround to get long sustain? Your overdrive might just do the trick.

this is where I am at, sort of.  I can breadboard a lot better now and have advanced some, but some of the schematics I am unable to transfer over to permanent homes.

I can do some p2p and some vero but it just depends. For example, I can BB a fuzz but cannot move it to a vero layout; or I can p2p wire an echoplex on perf but cannot vero it..the ones i can draw a vero up for , I cant wire p2p ..and so the mystery goes !

I love it though..I now spend most of my free thinking time, like a waiting room, drawing out vero layouts and such to try and get working circuits.

i watched that video and commented a while back..seems I prefer the MKII the best

Joe Gore, of tonefiend, does a great job in all of his videos. I wanted to give him a plug for his channel lol

[anotherjim]

Cello sound isn't all in the box. Violin style finger vibrato (sitting down helps), some real feedback between cab and guitar -  not enough to howl though, guitar tone rolled off. Probably neck pickup too. You can get that sound with a DS-1 if you want.