Umble Circuit - Seems to have serious design flaws

[deadastronaut]

great to see the first sausage of the year...

[Tony Forestiere]

Breadboard the "generalized" version of any FET gain stage tube simulation and tone stack, make the changes to minimize the shortcomings you find and maximize what you want to hear, and call it the "Rumble" (or "Grumble" or "Stumble"). That makes the modified circuit a one-off design. Knock yourself out and have fun.

My attorneys  are currently applying for trademarking the usage of the pedal names "Rumble", "Grumble", and "Stumble". You will have to use something else, or you will be guilty of trademark infringement, which will be pursued to the letter of the law.  (Of course, I am full of crap.)

Happy New Year to All. Peace. 

[nocentelli]

I've seen some other post out there where people have had to defend themselves against ROG and the court of public opinion.  Yes, I plan to build a Dumble-esque pedal, but am concerned that I may fall prey to their so-called licensing model.

Please post some links to this: Throughout this thread you've referred to ROG "going after people" they deem to have infringed their CC licence, but you then also refer to "the court of public opinion". ROG can't be held accountable for random internet warriors shouting "intellectual property rights infringement!" whenever they see something vaguely resembling a ROG circuit in a $200 boutique pedal.
If I hadn't spent the last ten years browsing diy guitar pedal related forums, after reading this thread I might have got the impression ROG are hawkish, bullying types rather than the community spirited folks they appear to be from the regular posts they leave here and elsewhere.

I stopped using youtube demo vids as a guide to how pedals sound a while back: Everything demo'ed by Andy from PGS sounds amazing due to the recording and playing techniques being employed: All overdrive pedals are played through an already sweet-sounding, slightly overdriven tube amp, nasty gating fuzz pedals are used to play doomy riffs but never to sustain a note, careful mic placement and professional production ensure that ANY pedal sounds good or great. Most ROG demos are just DIY folks recording a quick glimpse at home, often just using a phone etc. I have not tried the Umble so cannot comment on what it sounds like for real, but I know that I didn't bother trying the ROG Trivibe for several years because all available videos made it sound pretty mediocre, but then I actually tried it out and found it to be quite good.

[Bill Mountain]

The only company I can think of that blatantly ripped of some ROG stuff was JHS.  A known cloner.

Listen...No one owns cascaded gain stages.  No one owns boosted mids.  No one owns a sound.

ROG has been instrumental in a lot of people's understanding of DIY pedal making.  I've built most of their stuff and I learned a trick or two.

I also stole tricks from RG, PRR, Gus, Jack Orman, Craig Anderton (this is who got me into pedals), Teemuk, DIYSB, GGG, Madbean, etc.

You know who else I stole from???  Mike Mathews, Pete Cornish, Roger Mayer, Andrew Barta, Zachary Vex, etc.

Oh and who can forget Leo Fender, Jim Marshall, Hartley Peavey, Larry Hartke, Randall Smith, etc.

Oh shit...there's also Lee De Forest and John Fleming.

Man...When I come to market with my Super Mega Toobey Rumble Pedal that projects a 3D hologram of Stevie I'm gonna owe a shit-ton of royalties.

[Tony Forestiere]

Man...When I come to market with my Super Mega Toobey Rumble Pedal that projects a 3D hologram of Stevie I'm gonna owe a shit-ton of royalties.

Tsk Tsk. Trademark infringement. Pay me. 

[stallik]

As it's New Year, I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank every one involved with this forum from the owner who started it all, the veterans with years of experience who still give their valuable time and experience, the new users who are just starting out and ask the kind of questions I should have when I started and the friends I've made along the way.
Thankyou for making this such a positive place to visit and learn without the presence of ill feeling or ego.
I raise my glass to you all

[blackieNYC]

The OP gave due props to ROG somewhere on page two. We'll put that first post aside soon, so don't change your handle or anything like that. It was just a bit jarring.  ROG is like family.
Now, ROG has this big copper thing....  No. I won't.
Welcome to the forum!

EDIT:  Wait a minute! You went after RG? With the two institutions you have slandered, I think you should be reminded to give everyone your respect until they deserve to have it taken away. You could still probably craft a solid retraction before you get more of what Garcho is serving you below.  Join us at the table and meet the family before you...    Ugh.

[stallik]

Oops sorry, wrong topic

[Jdansti]

I built the Umble and it didn't work as I expected. I attribute this to some mistake on my part. I'm not going to get into the licensing issues as I'm extremely ignorant on that subject.

[Frank_NH]

I have built the Umble from a commercially available PCB.  It sounds fine, although I prefer more British/Marshall-style sounds for guitar.

One thing to mention (and this is true for all amp sim pedals) is that the Umble is NOT an overdrive!  It's meant to be a stand alone amp simulation and you can send its output to a mixer board and then to a PA or recording device.  You can certainly overdrive a tube amp with it too, but it was not meant to do that.  I run my amp sims into a clean solid state amp or (for recording) into a mixer/computer interface.  BTW, the Britannia sounds great direct to a computer!

Finally, someone has already modded the Umble (at the link below) to remove the "design flaws"...

http://aquataur.hilpold.net/aquataur/musicstuff/umble.html

I hope the OP will show us his (proposed) design improvements in the spirit of DIY knowledge enhancement...

[deadastronaut]

Oops sorry, wrong topic

is that 25 year old malt kicking in again...hic..

[garcho]

I'm a degreed EE with over 22 years experience

I ... designed the first ever midi controlled effects looper back in 1996

I'm pretty sure I can create a great Dumble-esque pedal

So instead of designing a "great Dumble-esque" pedal and bringing it to the forum - surely something mind-numbingly simple for the genius who invented the first ever midi controlled effects looper 20 years ago - you thought it made more sense to talk a bunch of smack without providing fact or source, and tell everyone how awesome you are. Your decades of experience in professional EE audio world taught you to be scared of a DIY guitar pedal website's army of lawyers? Your decades of experience working for Dolby taught you to use ultra low fidelity youtube clips to judge signal processors? So odd.

[Bill Mountain]

Oops sorry, wrong topic

I thought it was very fitting.

[deadastronaut]

anyone got change of a a tenner?..

[GibsonGM]

anyone got change of a a tenner?..

Out of popcorn?

[mojokorn]

Listen...No one owns cascaded gain stages.  No one owns boosted mids.  No one owns a sound.

^This

ROG has been instrumental in a lot of people's understanding of DIY pedal making.  I've built most of their stuff and I learned a trick or two.

Yeah, seems like ROG is the home team here. No worries :-)

I also stole tricks from RG, PRR, Gus, Jack Orman, Craig Anderton (this is who got me into pedals), Teemuk, DIYSB, GGG, Madbean, etc.

You know who else I stole from???  Mike Mathews, Pete Cornish, Roger Mayer, Andrew Barta, Zachary Vex, etc.

Oh and who can forget Leo Fender, Jim Marshall, Hartley Peavey, Larry Hartke, Randall Smith, etc.

Oh shit...there's also Lee De Forest and John Fleming.

Craig's a bud of mine, done some work for him over the years (yep, nuttin like a little name dropping).  He's one of the greatest guys of all time.  Come to think of it, I don't recall him having licensing restrictions on his designs   

Man...When I come to market with my Super Mega Toobey Rumble Pedal that projects a 3D hologram of Stevie I'm gonna owe a shit-ton of royalties.

I want one!  When can I place my pre-launch order?

[mojokorn]

I'm a degreed EE with over 22 years experience

I ... designed the first ever midi controlled effects looper back in 1996

I'm pretty sure I can create a great Dumble-esque pedal

So instead of designing a "great Dumble-esque" pedal and bringing it to the forum - surely something mind-numbingly simple for the genius who invented the first ever midi controlled effects looper 20 years ago - you thought it made more sense to talk a bunch of smack without providing fact or source, and tell everyone how awesome you are. Your decades of experience in professional EE audio world taught you to be scared of a DIY guitar pedal website's army of lawyers? Your decades of experience working for Dolby taught you to use ultra low fidelity youtube clips to judge signal processors? So odd.

Mmmh, I get attacked for being a newbie so I post my credentials.  Then I get attacked for being a know it all.

Neither, nor.   Just a dude who loves playing through and making great gear.

"Whatever happened to peace love and understanding... ooooh ooh oh oh!"

[ggedamed]

I've got a few minutes off, so I'll feed my troll...

[...] I've been reviewing the Run Off Groove Umble circuit and it seems to have some serious design flaws.[...]
[...] I've heard that some guys have been bashed on forums and such for using the ROG designs - seems a bit like a mobster mentality. [...]

Pure poetry.

[...] To this day, I think that anyone who develops something new and novel such that it can be protected AND offers an optimized implementation deserves to be rewarded.  ROGs design is neither proven nor patented.

I will absolutely share my final schemo here, even if I take it commercial...  However, based on the above, I can't in good conscious give ROG licensing or attribution.

"It seems" or "I've heard" that you're confusing license and patent.

[...] By labeling as a Dumble clone, they are holding it to a higher standard than "Does it distort." And based on that, the Umble YouTube videos are far from impressive (compared to the Zed Drive).  Also their schemo still shows V1.0.  IMO, it sounds like they grunted, squeezed and then fished the design out the toilet - and then called dibs on derivatives that fix the issues that make it sound so unimpressive.

If I enhance (or fix) the circuit and want to take it commercial, then do I have to fend these knuckle-heads off?... just because they called dibs :-)  I think not. [...]

[...] My position is not to attack them, but to call them out for attempting to collect licensing on something that is not licensable.  It doesn't help their cause that the circuit is not optimized. [...]

Oh, really? Why would anyone think you're attacking them?

I'm a degreed EE with over 22 years experience

I ... designed the first ever midi controlled effects looper back in 1996

I'm pretty sure I can create a great Dumble-esque pedal

So instead of designing a "great Dumble-esque" pedal and bringing it to the forum - surely something mind-numbingly simple for the genius who invented the first ever midi controlled effects looper 20 years ago - you thought it made more sense to talk a bunch of smack without providing fact or source, and tell everyone how awesome you are. Your decades of experience in professional EE audio world taught you to be scared of a DIY guitar pedal website's army of lawyers? Your decades of experience working for Dolby taught you to use ultra low fidelity youtube clips to judge signal processors? So odd.

Mmmh, I get attacked for being a newbie so I post my credentials.  Then I get attacked for being a know it all.

Neither, nor.   Just a dude who loves playing through and making great gear.

"Whatever happened to peace love and understanding... ooooh ooh oh oh!"

So, you're the one that's attacked, dude! NOW it makes sense!



I'm sure that you'll heroically refrain from any hard fact in any of your posts (including the future ones).

[mcknib]

You got a 'like' Mr Mojo that's good you never know someone might give you a sausage soon, highly prized around these parts....827 views? you certainly know how to make an entrance

Aw heck! go on 'av some



in fact have some of these too it's time we saw some of scotland's own square one's lovely with onions!

[Hatredman]

.  Companies only had to pay if they wanted to use the name - essentially licensing the Brand of both Dolby and the technology.  I'd suggest ROG build a brand and do the same.

But that's EXACTLY what they do.

I'm not getting what you are complaining about.