Why is the moogerfooger out of production when I can buy MN3205s on ebay for $5?

[maark6000]

Just curious, what was in the moogerfooger that can't be replicated by the MN3205s I see on ebay for $5.  What chip was in the moog units that was so special?

Mark

[mth5044]

I really doubt moog shops on eBay. It's also safer to assume the BBD you are looking at on eBay is fake than assuming it's real.

I had read they used to use mn3005, then went to Mn3008. These are not the same as mn3205. Have a look at their data sheets to compare.

[maark6000]

here is a comparison of the MN3005 and the MN3205 from their datasheets:

Similarities:

both are 4096 stage bucket brigade style chips.
both have a delay time up to 204.8 ms.
the MN3205 has slightly better total harmonic distortion at 0.8, the 3005 at 1.0.

Differences:

the big one seems to be supply voltage, the MN3005 operates on a -15v supply, the MN3205 on a +5v, but most people run it on a +9v
dynamic range:  MN3005 = 75 db, MN3205 = 67 db.
output voltage, MN3205 at +11, MN3005 at -18.

Obviously there are more parameters in the datasheet, and there are many more similarities that differences between the chips, and where there are differences, they seem small and difficult to tell how that parameter would affect the overall sound the chip produces. 

So, since the BIG difference seems to be that one operates on a negative supply, the other on a positive... it seems weird that you couldn't just do some fiddling with the way the 'fooger is designed at reconfigure the device for a positive supply, right?  What am I missing? 

I have some of the said ebay MN3205s, as that is the chip that was used in the original Arion SAD-1A, and it does get a little grainy as you approach its maximum delay length.  Does the MN3005 not? 

[Mark Hammer]

The MN3005 IS back in production, so perhaps we can look forward to Moogerfooger bringing the MF-104 back into production, without having to redesign for anything.

[maark6000]

Really?  Do you know who is selling them?

[mth5044]

Xvive, however; there are quite a few problems with getting fully functional chips, or any chips at all from them, currently.

As far as the MN/V3205, it runs off of 5V, significantly lower headroom than the 15V of the 3005. There are delays that use them, but I suspect reworking the entire circuit around a different BBD, that may or may not be in supply in bulk or real parts, isn't high on the moog to do list.

[maark6000]

Good to know.  I'm currently working on my own analog delay, using the ebay 3205.  Agreed 5v is not a lot of headroom, but I do wonder if that is a real limitation given that a; guitar signals are certainly smaller than that and b; the signal is compressed via a compander before hitting the delay chip.  I guess I'll have to hunt down a moogerfooger and put it thru it's paces.  They claim an 800 ms delay.  I wonder how grainy the delayed signal is at that extreme?  Also, can we assume they were using 4 chips in a row to achieve that delay length?

[R.G.]

I've worked in product development design my entire adult life. Whether a product is renewed for production or not is a highly complicated set of evaluations.

The reason put out as "The Reason" that a product is not renewed, even with the best and most honest of intentions may not convey the full and completely nuanced set of evaluations. However, anything that is told to the public must be factual, and blindingly, screamingly simple. Otherwise, members of the public will pick it apart and some of them will hire lawyers to sue for a variety of reasons.

So, I'm guessing that what the MN3205 will or won't do and what it sells for, it's SPQ rating, as well as total sales, minimum order quantity, margin, and a thousand other things really went into that decision. Any announcement more detailed than "we've decided not to make this any more" is a generous set of information.   

[Mark Hammer]

Good to know.  I'm currently working on my own analog delay, using the ebay 3205.  Agreed 5v is not a lot of headroom, but I do wonder if that is a real limitation given that a; guitar signals are certainly smaller than that and b; the signal is compressed via a compander before hitting the delay chip.  I guess I'll have to hunt down a moogerfooger and put it thru it's paces.  They claim an 800 ms delay.  I wonder how grainy the delayed signal is at that extreme?  Also, can we assume they were using 4 chips in a row to achieve that delay length?

The 32xx series can run off 5VDC, but just to be clear, it does not have 5V of headroom.  There is likely less headroom in the 32xx series, running off 5VDC, than in a 30xx chip running off 15VDC, but the advantage of the higher supply voltage probably applies more to the remainder of the audio path around the BBD than to the BBD itself.  Keep in mind that the audio is passing through the BBD, riding on a bias voltage that's very close to the supply voltage itself.  As near as I can tell, the 32xx series was developed to overcome the problem of maintaining stable bias in battery-operated pedals, a "problem" that has since passed as the majority of players come to use power supplies instead of batteries for their pedals.

[maark6000]

Good point R.G.  Perhaps there isn't a market demand for the pedal... it is expensive.  I've heard however that they go for $1000 on ebay... so that would lead me to believe that there is some demand. 

I personally am not having a problem with the way these $5 MN3205s sound.  I've currently got two of them running in series (so to speak) and can get up to about 300 msec delay before the grain takes over and makes things very unmusical.  Who knows, maybe when I finally locate and try out an actual MF I'll see the light. 

I'm going to try running four of them in a row here in a bit and see where that leads.   

Thanks for the info.  Totally diggin' this forum. 

[PRR]

I didn't know MOOG was still in business. Duh, I guess the name will live on (and be sold and bought) for ever, or until we of a certain age have to live on our Social Security....

There's a Moogerfooger Delay on their site. Very limited production, "Out Of Stock", $800.
http://www.moogmusic.com/products/moogerfoogers/mf-104m-super-delay
Moog lists so many products, many very high-price, that I could see why they don't fee a need to make every possible product.
__________________________________________________
> Perhaps there isn't a market demand for the pedal... it is expensive.  I've heard however that they go for $1000 on ebay... so that would lead me to believe that there is some demand.

I was watching the car-auction. Many 1968 Camaro sales over $50,000, I think the top "stock" went well over $100K.

While the 1968 Camaro went out of production in 1968, essentially every part (including now whole body shells!) can be bought aftermarket.

GM may be broke, but they could deal-with or buy-out most of those parts-makers and assemble 1968 Camaros, limited production, extra-spec engines and options, sell a cheap car (Chevy II) for more than a Corvette.

Not gonna happen.

(Yes, there is a special problem here. A made-in-2016 1968 Camaro probably has to meet ALL current safety tests, which a 1968 body can't do. Yes, Shelby tricked the system with "unsold 1966 Cobras" which he kept "finding" in his garages long after.....)

[wavley]

I didn't know MOOG was still in business. Duh, I guess the name will live on (and be sold and bought) for ever, or until we of a certain age have to live on our Social Security....

There's a Moogerfooger Delay on their site. Very limited production, "Out Of Stock", $800.
http://www.moogmusic.com/products/moogerfoogers/mf-104m-super-delay
Moog lists so many products, many very high-price, that I could see why they don't fee a need to make every possible product.

Bob brought Moog back quite a while ago as Big Briar before he bought back the Moog name making theremins and moogerfoogers, it's why the older ones have his signature instead of the Moog logo.

If you're ever in Asheville, NC I highly recommend taking the factory tour.  Part of the reason Moog stuff commands a high dollar is that they are still as built in NC as possible and all parts (like metalwork and woodwork) that can be sourced locally are, one of the fab houses a half hour north of me stuffs PCBs for Moog (as of last time I took the tour a few years ago)  Watching a MiniMoog Voyager getting built and seeing one getting tuned in the lab is a thing of beauty.

Although, I think the prices on things like the Minifoogers and Mother 32 are actually quite reasonable, they might be feeling the heat from the cheap and great analog stuff coming from Korg lately.