Fake stereo effect?

[stallik]

I have two amps running through an ABY. (Passive or RG's hum free). There is no obvious evidence of phase reversal and it sounds fine. However, if I place a chorus pedal (Little Angel) in front of one amp, both sound somehow better. You can more easily hear each amp - almost a stereo effect which I'm presuming is something to do with the modulation. The chorus level is set very low and the chorus is 'only just there' but the overall effect is quite pronounced.

I'd like to incorporate the effect into the ABY with its own switch and was thinking of an Angel, trim pots for the controls as a set it and forget it but before I get out the shoehorn, anyone any ideas if I might be able to achieve a similar effect by other means? I've only tried chorus perhaps another kind of modulation would be even more effective?

[deadastronaut]

wouldnt you get the same effect with a tight/fast delay?...

[garcho]

inverting phase on one channel or adding a tiny amount of delay are old studio tricks for "expanding" the stereo field, or making you feel like you're on acid if your head is in the right spot relative to the speakers

[garcho]

https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep10/articles/pt-0910.htm

[stallik]

Thanks guys. Great reading. I wondered how these wide effects worked. I'll try a short delay and see how simple I can make a fixed delay. Wonder why I've not seen this as an inclusion in an ABY layout?

[nocentelli]

The little angel with the modulation depth turned down is just a very short delay, similar to ADT or automatic double tracking.

[blackieNYC]

There are other ways. If you are going the modulation route, why not make a stereo panner? The LFO turns on and off audio circuit A. LFO also gets inverted and turns off and on audio circuit B. More elaborately, this can be done with a chorus or flanger, or  an "harmonic vibrato."
Here's one ive read about but never tried. Opposite graphic eqs. Seems boring. I think people actually use it.

[Scruffie]

The EHX Ambitron was designed for exactly this, you'd have to convert the SAD1024s to something else (I saw one version used a MN3005 but never seen a schematic for it) but, it's something to look at.

[mth5044]

the 3005 seems pretty darn excessive for an ADT type effect. I bet you could use that little ADT circuit floating around the forum, or the EHX slap back pedal. A super simple BBD circuit. Or a regular old pt2399 like OP is already using?

[Scruffie]

the 3005 seems pretty darn excessive for an ADT type effect. I bet you could use that little ADT circuit floating around the forum, or the EHX slap back pedal. A super simple BBD circuit. Or a regular old pt2399 like OP is already using?

The EHX full double tracking used a MN3005 and the earlier slap back echo an SAD1024 so same problem.

The Ambitron uses 2 x SAD in series with a compander, the compander wasn't in the 3005 version I saw i'd assume as it used a higher clock frequency so the filtering could remain light but without the added noise.

Seeing as it's a fixed delay a PT2399 could be hacked in its place yeah.

[MrStab]

am i right in thinking the "3D Sound" switch you used to get on 1990s computer speakers used some of these tricks, like those in the link Gary posted? if so, that could maybe make for some further reading. i have no clue to what extent this was done in the speaker amps themselves, or via. software. i might recall some games having a 3D Sound option in their menus.

[deadastronaut]

the 'HAAS' effect....pretty cool for something so simple.... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PFgCrvwByo


going by HAAS  5-10ms on one side should work..

might have a play with this myself later....

[stallik]

The Haas effect doesn't come over too well on my iphone best listen to that in stereo when I get home.
I'm presuming that when using the delay, it should be wet signal only and I'm not sure my PT-80 will do that. Nevertheless, I'm going to play with this further.

[deadastronaut]

yeah its very effective on stereo's...tried it in cubase earlier..

and yep 100% wet i'd say..

might be worth an mn3005 experiment..

[GibsonGM]

inverting phase on one channel or adding a tiny amount of delay are old studio tricks for "expanding" the stereo field, or making you feel like you're on acid if your head is in the right spot relative to the speakers

Right, it's WAY better than panning L or R!  I delay one side of a stereo track by just a hair, and you get quite a wide stereo effect. I don't pan anymore - too hollow...hopefully this thread leads to something useable in a live situation! 

[mth5044]

Here's what I was looking for:

http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/Schematics-etc/ADT+schem.gif.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1

Super simple MN3008 ADT circuit that might get you what you want. BUT, I think even the MN3008 is too much to get the Haas effect that's been talked about. I've read 10-15ms apart, even as extreme as 35ms. The 3008 has a min of 10ms, which could work, but goes up to 100ms if you use the standard clock, possibly leaving a lot of the early ms pot rotation unobtainable, at least repeated reliably, due to the small rotation in that section of the pot. The 3005 has a min of 20ms and 200ms max, so it might be even harder to get the sweet spot where the delay is not heard, but the separation effect is still there.

The 3007 with 5 to 50ms seems like you'd get a lot more refined Haas effect, if that's what you're going for. Might be easy enough to adapt that ADT 3008 circuit to use the 3007.

the 3005 seems pretty darn excessive for an ADT type effect. I bet you could use that little ADT circuit floating around the forum, or the EHX slap back pedal. A super simple BBD circuit. Or a regular old pt2399 like OP is already using?

The EHX full double tracking used a MN3005 and the earlier slap back echo an SAD1024 so same problem.

The Ambitron uses 2 x SAD in series with a compander, the compander wasn't in the 3005 version I saw i'd assume as it used a higher clock frequency so the filtering could remain light but without the added noise.

Seeing as it's a fixed delay a PT2399 could be hacked in its place yeah.

I believe you man, boy do I believe you! I imagine you've analyzed more EHX schematics that almost any EHX employee.

[Scruffie]

Here's what I was looking for:

http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/Schematics-etc/ADT+schem.gif.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1

Super simple MN3008 ADT circuit that might get you what you want. BUT, I think even the MN3008 is too much to get the Haas effect that's been talked about. I've read 10-15ms apart, even as extreme as 35ms. The 3008 has a min of 10ms, which could work, but goes up to 100ms if you use the standard clock, possibly leaving a lot of the early ms pot rotation unobtainable, at least repeated reliably, due to the small rotation in that section of the pot. The 3005 has a min of 20ms and 200ms max, so it might be even harder to get the sweet spot where the delay is not heard, but the separation effect is still there.

The 3007 with 5 to 50ms seems like you'd get a lot more refined Haas effect, if that's what you're going for. Might be easy enough to adapt that ADT 3008 circuit to use the 3007.

You don't have to use the entire clock range, you can fiddle with the values and limit a MN3008 to sweep from say 40kHz (25mS) to 100kHz (10ms) which will be better than the 3007 for filtering cut offs.

You can also overclock for shorter delay times.

the 3005 seems pretty darn excessive for an ADT type effect. I bet you could use that little ADT circuit floating around the forum, or the EHX slap back pedal. A super simple BBD circuit. Or a regular old pt2399 like OP is already using?

The EHX full double tracking used a MN3005 and the earlier slap back echo an SAD1024 so same problem.

The Ambitron uses 2 x SAD in series with a compander, the compander wasn't in the 3005 version I saw i'd assume as it used a higher clock frequency so the filtering could remain light but without the added noise.

Seeing as it's a fixed delay a PT2399 could be hacked in its place yeah.

I believe you man, boy do I believe you! I imagine you've analyzed more EHX schematics that almost any EHX employee.

Haha, that is quite possible

If you did hack a PT2399 in to the ambitron you could simplify the circuit a lot, you wouldn't need the compander any more and you could recalculate its internal filters to remove the sallen-keys or keep those and just make the PT2399 filters buffers instead etc.

[stallik]

As I suspected, my delay does not allow 100% wet but it was still enough to create the effect. But here's the thing. My little angel, with both knobs fully ccw does not give a delay that I can detect, instead there's a slow lfo noise. It's no longer a chorus either so somethings wrong with it. What it does do however is make the fake stereo rather huge - much stronger than the delay

Will have to get a scope on it to try and see what's going on. Bit puzzled at the moment and I've got precious time to investigate. Frustrating.

[mth5044]

I don't think the PT2399 can go below ~30ms or so, which is on the audible border, but makes sense that you won't be able to hear it. I don't think the chip can literally do 0ms, no delay, without bypassing the chip.

When you have the speed and depth all the way down, you're still slowly modulating the very small delay, in chorus territory. There are no 'off' positions unless you bypass the effect, which is why you still hear something going on.

[Quackzed]

can you get haas effects that arent directional? like not perseptually left or right dominant? i've done this type of think with recording, but never seemed i could get 'centered' just by time delay, always took level adjusting and eq etc... but in the youtube video deadastro linked above at the end @20ms it sounds pretty non directional? is there a range where its less left or right and just widening? or is this frequency dependent?