Phase 45 clone troubleshooting

[robthequiet]

Um, just to make sure that the ground is also connected to circuit ground. I would go right to the ground side of the battery.

[cnspedalbuilder]

 

Does the circuit work without the switching?
Have you tried testing the circuit before you made the switching arrangement.

If there's an issue with the switch. It might possibly be causing the "feedback"

So, I successfully wired up temporary in and out jacks and added a common ground wire with alligator clip so we can ground to enclosure. I appreciate the suggestion, because I can totally use this to test circuits on future projects w/o hooking up the 3PDT.

....and now for the results [drum roll.........]

Kipper4 gets a slam dunk!  [thanks also RTQ and D_A, MAP and others who have chipped in!]
It is a clean, working phaser circuit. No feedback, guitar sound comes out phased/vibed, speed control works, etc. Effect is subtle, but it's clearly there. It feels so good to finally make progress!

So there was *something* about having the in and out running through the footswitch. Part of me wants to quit while I am ahead, and just box it. But I figure that this journey is not finished until I get it working w/a switch. At this point, what is the best way to diagnose the problem with the switch? Before I disconnected, the switch was able to toggle b/w bypass and effect. Is it still possible that the switch is somehow broken?

All of my previous continuity checks on switch wiring seemed to pan out, though I will re-check. One thing I noticed when inspecting switch wiring is that the switch wiring on the GGG layout differs a bit from the finished pedal wiring shown on the instructions http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/pdf/ggg_p45_instruct.pdf

Any other ideas on what to check?

I suppose it's also possible that there was a problem with in/out jack wiring in the pedal enclosure, because now its working when I am using a separate pair of jacks.

p.s. you all are awesome. Thanks for the moral support and the suggestions.

[Kipper4]

What what what?
Its working. Excellant.
Myself and many others use the tonepad offboard wiring no 5.  http://www.tonepad.com/getFileInfo.asp?id=76
Be sure to note the direction of the lugs on the switch bottom.
I now wish I had one of those gif images to share that show how these switches work. Anyone.

I've effed up some switches in the past by too much heat, that warms the compound holding the lugs in place.
I'm not sure what the compound is. Maybe epoxy resin. but when you heat it up too much it feels like sealing wax.
Yes i'm that old I remember dad using sealing wax on documents.
It does depend on the wire being used, some of the wires i have seem to take a lot of heating, especially the military grade.
IMO military grade wire is probably overkill in an effect, especially the teflon insulation stuff.
Save it for a rocket launcher.

[cnspedalbuilder]

What what what?
Its working. Excellant.
Myself and many others use the tonepad offboard wiring no 5.  http://www.tonepad.com/getFileInfo.asp?id=76
Be sure to note the direction of the lugs on the switch bottom.
I now wish I had one of those gif images to share that show how these switches work. Anyone.

I've effed up some switches in the past by too much heat, that warms the compound holding the lugs in place...

It's certainly possible that I melted some of the goo that surrounds the switch lugs and I guess that could have done bad things.

Re: The offboard wiring, I couldn't link from the tonepad page to see exactly what you are talking about. Were you referring to a PCB that hooks up to 3PDT switch so you can wire the switch easier? I have some of those, but I'm concerned that if the switch is busted that still won't work?

Is there an obvious test I can do to see if the switch is defective or if the wiring is incorrect?

[robthequiet]

Out of circuit, connect your meter to the center lug of each throw, then check each position that the switch closes and opens as it should. Also check the top and bottom to make sure they're not shorted at all, and each throw to each other throw. There could always be some gobbledeygook going on inside. I also use alligator clip leads to temporarily connect to the wires from the pcb to make sure it checks out before final soldering.

Glad to see it's coming together!

[Kipper4]

You can test the switch to see if it's still functional with the meter on beep (connectivity)
In this thread reply 184 page 10 Marc (Bluebunny) explains how it works
Use the meter to confirm all is well.

http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=970.180


And in this thread reply 24 shows the tonepad off board wiring I have used for sometime.

http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=75778.20


I'm not as keen on the ggg documents. It hurts my eyes.

[cnspedalbuilder]

OK, I think I am now getting how these switches work! 

So I've seen a few pages and kits that have different suggestions for 3PDT wiring. Is it the case that different pedals require a different bypass wiring scheme, or that any garden variety pedal can use the same wiring scheme, but there are multiple ways to do it?

In other words, let's say the instructions tell me one way to wire it. Can I use the tonepad method instead?

[thermionix]

You can test the switch to see if it's still functional with the meter on beep (connectivity)

Might want to go beyond continuity and measure actual resistance.  Like if you get 25 ohms, for instance, it will beep, but that's not a good connection for a switch.  You want a fraction of an ohm, if not dead zero.  Just sayin'.

[Kipper4]

OK, I think I am now getting how these switches work! 

So I've seen a few pages and kits that have different suggestions for 3PDT wiring. Is it the case that different pedals require a different bypass wiring scheme, or that any garden variety pedal can use the same wiring scheme, but there are multiple ways to do it?



In other words, let's say the instructions tell me one way to wire it. Can I use the tonepad method instead?

Yes and yes for true bypass switching.

[cnspedalbuilder]

So for newbies, here is a site that did a nice job of explaining what the 3PDT does:
http://www.coda-effects.com/2015/03/3pdt-and-true-bypass-wiring.html

Rob, when you said test out of circuit, did you mean that I should disconnect all lines linking the PCB with the footswitch? Right now, footswitch is wired up, but disconnected from in and out jacks.

I started testing and the switch will toggle between the top and bottom rows. Anyway when i run continuity from Lug 2 it alternates between Lug 1 and Lug 3 depending on switch position, so that seems normal. Likewise, lug 5 will switch connections between Lug 4 and Lug 6.  Lug 8 will show continuity with Lug 7 in one switch position. When switch is reversed, Lug 8 shows continuity with both Lug 7 and Lug 9.

I don't know if Lug 8 continuity should look like because there is a jumper connecting the bottom row input jack line (lug 3) to the upper right lug (lug 7), which makes this all a bit counter-intuitive. as Rich put it, the wiring is headache inducing.

Thoughts? Other tests?

If you guys think that the switch is fine and its something weird in the wiring, then I am inclined to disconnect all the lugs and re-wire with a 3PDT PCB, so that I can get everything in its right place.

p.s. Therm, I was having a little trouble with DMM resistance check. Will have some coffee and come back to it.

[duck_arse]

Lug 8 will show continuity with Lug 7 in one switch position. When switch is reversed, Lug 8 shows continuity with both Lug 7 and Lug 9.

this. suggests too much soldering heat on the lugs, and one has shifted, under pressure of the internal springing contraption. you can use the other two poles as normal, but not in anything mission critical.

good work on the trackdown.

[cnspedalbuilder]

Lug 8 will show continuity with Lug 7 in one switch position. When switch is reversed, Lug 8 shows continuity with both Lug 7 and Lug 9.

this. suggests too much soldering heat on the lugs, and one has shifted, under pressure of the internal springing contraption. you can use the other two poles as normal, but not in anything mission critical.

good work on the trackdown.

Stephen, are you saying I found the problem??!!!!!!??   
does this mean that if I replace the 3PDT, it should be fine?

I think I need all of the lugs, in order to hook up to LED, PCB circuit in, and PCB circuit out, right?

Even the thought of snuffing out the bug makes me excited.

[cnspedalbuilder]

So based on the feedback so far, I went ahead and ordered a few extra 3PDTs and figured I would replace the one that has the continuity problem.

Is there anything else I should test at this point?

[Kipper4]

"Is there anything else I should test at this point? "

Only your sanity after wanting to make your own.........

Seriously congratulations at least now you have a working pedal.
You got through a debug.
Just go easy on the switch soldering next time. It's one of the most expensive componants in most of my builds.
I use leaded rosin core solder because it has a lower melting point as do most here I believe.
Just as a point of intrest.

If you prepared to forego the led indicator in a build you could still use the switch as Duck Arse pointed out thus.

"you can use the other two poles as normal, but not in anything mission critical."

[cnspedalbuilder]

Good news! I installed new switch and can toggle pedal on and off. This means that the switch was definitely the problem.

Slightly bad news--the LED now either wants to stay on or off. So when I wired the new switch, I ran it through a 3PDT board that I got from GuitarPCB.com (along with some nice hookup wire). Here's the URL: http://www.guitarpcb.com/apps/webstore/products/show/3436229

The thing is, the GGG schematic basically shows the LED + going to the "L" pad in PCB, and the - lead connects to switch (looks like the side of the switch that activates pedal by routing input/output through PCB). I have tried to replicate this with the 3PDT board, but no luck.

I tried running the - LED lead to a ground pad on the 3PDT board, and + LED lead to "L" pad on PCB. With that, light always stays on.
I have tried running the -ve LED lead to the middle "D1" pad of the 3PDTboard and the +ve lead to the right-side (white square) D1 pad. With that, light always stays off. Either way, pedal works fine, but I have to fix this last bit.

So I realize I'm probably lame for even using this 3PDT board, but I really wanted to have clean wiring and minimize heat damage to the new switch. I'm sure there is a simple fix, but I can't think of it right now probably because I am not sure how board relays power to LED. Do you have any suggestions for rewiring?

BTW, thanks you guys for all the time and effort you have put in to help!

[duck_arse]

I always like to say "draw the circuit". so, draw the circuit. draw the switch poles correctly, so all the N/O face one way, and the N/C, well, you can work out which way they will face. then you will see what needs to be connected to what else, and more importantly, when they will actually be connected.

then it's a matter of working out how your board wiring wires the switch poles (never used one of the boards, can't help you with them) compared to your circuit drawing. then, the shingles will fall from your eyes, and the light will be dazzling.

in which case, increase the CLR.

[Kipper4]

or email/call GGG
even from a close up look at the switch pcb i'm having trouble with it.

You could test the water with a spare led and try touching the legs to the D1 trio of holes and throw the switch. worst case scenario you blow an led and see the magic smoke at your own risk.

[cnspedalbuilder]

Stephen and Rich, this is super helpful. Can I ask a couple of followups?

1.

draw the switch poles correctly, so all the N/O face one way, and the N/C, well, you can work out which way they will face.

->Sorry novice question, but what does N/O and N/C mean?

2. Forgetting my problem for a moment, how is power routed to LED normally? For instance, in the GGG circuit, it shows one end of LED going to "L" pad on PCB, and the other going to a switch lug. I wasn't exactly clear how that wiring toggles the LED on/off. is the -vs lead on the LED supposed to go to a ground point or to another part of the circuit?

Thanks!

[Kipper4]

This might help explain it a bit more. Lets hope its not more confusing

http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Learn_About_Guitar_Pickups_and_Electronics_and_Wiring/3PDT_Stomp_Switch_Instructions.html

N/O  normally open
N/C  normally closed

the throw that the led is used for, Illuminates the led when the pcb is in circuit (Not Bypassed)
So When the input jack tip is connected to the pcb input
and simultaniously the output jack tip is connected to the pcb out

the led throw connects the led cathode (minus pin) to ground and allows currant and voltage through the led therefore lighting it up.


the led anode (Positive pin) goes to a CLR (current limmiting resistor) and the other end of the clr goes to V+ (9V).
Why use a clr? Because it dulls the led brightness otherwise it will burn your retina and it prolongs the leds life some suggest.

Hence this from DA

"then, the shingles will fall from your eyes, and the light will be dazzling.

in which case, increase the CLR."

[cnspedalbuilder]

I had understood the bit about the switch, but didn't know about how the switch toggles the LED, so thanks for sheddling light  on this issue!
BTW, you guys are great. I have learned a ton of information from your posts. 
Will keep you posted on what happens next!
p.s. I tried testing a spare LED and with one of the tests, got a flash of light and then no response, so maybe I saw the magic