pcb etch help

[LightSoundGeometry]

hello, seems I have everything down except during the rinse process some of my ink trace is washing off and rubbing off rather easily.

is this due to an error in the copper cleaning step or the ironing step - I am using toner transfer from gloss. havent attempted an etch as I cant the ink transfer right yet

trying to do what small bear says, slightly heating board, polyester med/low heat and about 60-90 seconds
http://diy.smallbearelec.com/HowTos/DirectPCBoards/DirectPCBoards.htm

I am scrubbing with scotchbrite and comet and alcohol



some of the paper residue is on but afraid to take off more ink ..the bottom corner I think I might be able to cover ..all I have is a sharpie though and it seems to not stick



all YT vids are showing highest heat setting and maximum pressure ..I am not hot or long enough with iron ..and a lot show a 2 min pre board heat up


my first soaking :

[stringsthings]

It looks like your copper blank is clean enough.

For transferring the toner with glossy paper, I would increase the ironing time.  Remember that the Smallbear method uses Press-N-Peel which
is quite different than glossy paper.  I like to pre-heat the board for about a minute.  If you cut the toner transfer smaller than the copper,
it's not hard to center it on the first try.  After putting the toner transfer on the heated copper, I like to put the iron on and leave it there
for about a minute.  Then I start applying pressure and slowly moving the iron around.  You can tell when the toner is getting hot enough because it will start to show thru the paper.
After a couple of minutes of pressure ( especially the edges ), I usually put the iron on and leave it for another minute.  So it's about 4 minutes total.

Also, I use a pretty hot iron.  If the toner still isn't sticking, I'd experiment with a hotter iron.

Sharpie tips:  If the tip is too small, the ink has a harder time "sticking" to the copper. 
  The smallest tip I use is the fine point. 
  Letting the ink dry is a good idea.  You can also go over the area again if needed.

I've also used Testor's enamel paint with good success.  It's the paint for plastic models that come in tiny bottles.

PCB etching is not an exact science.  But with a little trial and error, you can get very good repeatable results.
And it's very cost effective. 

[karbomusic]

If you plan on etching regularly... Get one of these - assuming one etches enough as it will pay for itself by saved labor and guessing alone:


And this paper:
http://www.amazon.com/HP-Color-Laser-Presentation-Glossy/dp/B000FV876I

And all your PCB etching dreams will come true. Set it to 265F, set the timer for two minutes. /done It's also great for doing multiple circuits all in one go.

Irons are fine (that's what I started with) but they do require closer attention to detail and elbow grease. Repeatability is a reflection of that attention and detail. I still use an iron for enclosures but I cringe when I have to do it because I'm so spoiled with the ease and predictability of the t-shirt press. Plus I can now make my own t-shirts which is a bonus.

[LightSoundGeometry]

well..I dont know ...I think the guy who runs the pcb/perf website is a world class skilled tradesman and i bet there are very few in the diy community that can get these working on such a minute level..i wish he would think of the hobbyist a little more and not try to put everything into a 1590a ..at some point its okay to go into a 1590b ..you know what I mean?

I tried scaling the image larger in photoshop but its not coming out so well..I need to either work harder on my perf skills or find a more hobbyist friendly boards..he aint selling any boards either..I could see a scenario where you make the layouts as such that only an expert, with experience, can get em going; and the hobbyist breaks down and orders some premade boards. I guess my main point of the whole rant besides growing pains in etching lol is, if your this skilled to do some of these tiny ones, you most likely dont even need the website as you can do it all yourself in eagle etc etc..hope that makes sense !


waiting on a #59 from small bear to come in the mail ..these drill holes look very, very tiny ..



meh..once I see it in hidef photo ..I can see bridges it looks like ..its too much for me..beyond my level of experience to do these this small.

hope googles turns up something more beginner level and more advanced than the small bear Tweak O matic lol which I am sure is nice but you know ..

no doubt about it, takes a very skilled, and extremely smart, person to lay these out..I guess i can start with the LPB1/RM agan and start working my way up in component numbers to a 20-30 piece layout. I wanted some instant gratification to start with but its not going to be easy it looks

[Beo]

Get a cheap laminator and run the pcb through it 10 times.

[LightSoundGeometry]

I just got a free trial of PSP9 so i might be able to re-scale the image without losing too much of it

im going to try that here in a minute

the original is 1.6 x 1.4 ..I am going to try a 2.25 x 2.25 and stretch out parts a little ..might be able to get the drill bit i have in there then too

[karbomusic]

no doubt about it, takes a very skilled, and extremely smart, person to lay these out..

Not so much really. It takes patience and some determination while realizing (and being OK with) that the first one or more won't be a masterpiece if even useable at all. I was discussing with someone the other day what a "skill is" and came to the conclusion that much of it is knowing what not to do by doing what not to do enough times to know better which is usually impossible without making those mistakes a number of times. I don't have any pictures of my first few, but it was lots of trial and error and horrible mistakes until I ended up being able to predict success beforehand (both layout and etching). I can do them now, nearly in my sleep and I haven't been doing this that long. Sometimes it's as simple as getting ones frustration under control because frustration often causes one to stop thinking clearly.









I'd be happy to show you the ones I screwed up, but I don't usually take pictures of those. 

[balkanizeyou]

I second the laminator idea - I have never been too good with the iron. I made some nice PCBs, but the results were kinda unpredictable - I never changed anything in the process, but some of PCBs turned out nice, and some of them were crap for some reason.
I got really tired of it, so I bought myself the cheapest laminator possible, made a few slight modifications for it to be able to get to 170-180C, and now I can reliably make PCBs for TQFP packages and such in one try.

[J0K3RX]

Makes all the difference to have good toner. Refilled toner cartridges are notoriously bad for pcb etching... I am sure some new brand name toners are not as good as others also but I can only really attest to the one that I have first hand experience with which is HP. The refilled HP toner cartridges that I have don't work for etching but the "new" HP toner cartridges work perfectly. The refills work great for regular printing but for re-transferring the toner onto a pcb I end up having the same problem as the pic in the first post and sometimes a lot worse. I put a real HP toner cartridge in the same printer and it works fantastically... I also use a cheap $29.00 laminator that I picked up at Walmart. It didn't get quite hot enough right out of the box so I modded it to get hotter. I run a board through it about 5 times and it works great.. I use the HP 120 semi-glossy laser paper. That's about it.. I use a small amount of ferric chloride heated slightly in a plastic bag with a dish sponge... I can etch a board in about 1 minute..

[LightSoundGeometry]

i might of found my method ( so far) :

get pcb transfer, bl;ow up image in psp9 a lil bit, reverse mirror the image, print then hand draw on copper with sharpie untilk I get a pen from the bear

I have a grow light, might try photo resist possibly if i can hand draw them out myself

[thermionix]

I have a grow light

ahem

[stringsthings]

 

[LightSoundGeometry]

  fishtanks

I made my own and its mojo friendly

[chuckd666]

Yeah @LightSoundGeometry I had the exact same issues that you had when using an iron. It was mostly pretty good, though it wouldn't ever be a super strong bond to the copper and it would lift in parts. I found an article online about modding a cheap (-$20) laminator from officeworks to run hotter so you can run copper board through it. Perfect presses every time! I'm in Australia and the article was Australia-centric, though I'm sure it could be of interest - http://ultrakeet.com.au/write-ups/superFuserV2

Cheers

[deadastronaut]

I just got a free trial of PSP9 so i might be able to re-scale the image without losing too much of it

im going to try that here in a minute

the original is 1.6 x 1.4 ..I am going to try a 2.25 x 2.25 and stretch out parts a little ..might be able to get the drill bit i have in there then too

try 'inkscape' totally free...i use it all the time for etching, designing..
a great prog...lots of tutorials online too..

like jokerx was saying, those refill toners are crap...
always buy the genuine cartridge..they last years anyway...
in fact i bought my samsung ML-1660
brand new for 50 quid with cartridge included, and am still using it
3 years on...(however i have 2 printers, samsung toner for etching only , and use the  inkjet for all other stuff)

[bloxstompboxes]

I 5th or 6th the cheap laminator idea. I also, think you may be applying too much pressure with iron. That might be why you got bridging on the one etch. If the original layout has well defined straight edges and your etch comes out like it was mashed, spread out, or bleeding, then you applied too much pressure. I don't use the iron anymore as it's too much trouble and my laminator works wonders.

[morrissey007]

Another + for the laminator,  I run  the board through mine about 6 times then run it under a cool tap,  this helps set the toner on the board and the paper then just  falls off.  I use yellow toner transfer paprr that I buy on eBay UK.

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

[LightSoundGeometry]

cheap laminator works great after initially lining up print on the first run to avoid a smear. drop it in H2O for approx 30 mins and the paper peels itself off eliminating any need to pull or rub the transfer medium off.

Im very itchy from the process



my hand drawn one is looking pretty decent, I love the home brew look a lot - 1/16th drill bit is a bit large even for a freehand:

[deadastronaut]

cool...hows the grow light results though..

[LightSoundGeometry]

cool...hows the grow light results though..

big,fat, ripe tomatoes