Understanding positive ground....

[DeusM]

There's nothing more abstract than an electron! Current is simple. It's the 'stuff' that does the work, not the electrons.

So electrons is more abstract that "stuff"? 

Well, you can just expect to see an electron every day but one you understand how things work and how it relates to different subjects, it stops being something abstract a concept, a definition. Just because you can't see air it doesn't mean it's less real, or a hard to gasp concept. Why how electron behaves would be much harder that understanding how air woks.

[DeusM]

Current 'flows' at a fantastic speed; electrons move at snail's pace.

Just found this:
"When electric current in a material is proportional to the voltage across it, the material is said to be "ohmic", or to obey Ohm's law. A microscopic view suggests that this proportionality comes from the fact that an applied electric field superimposes a small drift velocity on the free electrons in a metal. For ordinary currents, this drift velocity is on the order of millimeters per second in contrast to the speeds of the electrons themselves which are on the order of a million meters per second. Even the electron speeds are themselves small compared to the speed of transmission of an electrical signal down a wire, which is on the order of the speed of light, 300 million meters per second"
Source: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/ohmmic.html

[antonis]

Can you see electricity? How do you know it's working the way it's supposed to be and not working just by accident.

If some old British vechicle industry guys only knew that their negative ground arrangement should result to a fight between Agnostics & Determinists... 

@ DeusM: I'm on your side but don't you think it should be better to continue our constractive arguments somewhere else..??
(i.e. Off-Topic section..)

[DeusM]

@ DeusM: I'm on your side but don't you think it should be better to continue our constractive arguments somewhere else..??
(i.e. Off-Topic section..)

Yeah, didn't mean to cause that much heat 
Can You imagine the discussion I can star if I make a post like "Should you learn electric science or not?". I made a post about "How not to die when dealing with electronics" asking beginners questions and now it has for pages long! I'm afraid I can star a war is this forum posting something like that. And then we can have little flags in our avatars representing people that love or hate water analogies or electron atheist and believers

[GibsonGM]

I still haven't seen anyone use that analogy, that "electrons flow from minus to plus, and HOLES flow the other way".   Almost like those metal balls on a rack, on a businessman's desk...pull one out and let it go, the force is transmitted thru the other 5, and the one on the opposite end flies up...

Not that I'm someone to follow, certainly no physicist (!), but I don't think of the things I build as working at the speed of light (tho they certainly do).  I'm more prone to a 'water visualization'...seeing the pipes fill, and in a second or 2 your signal comes out the other end.   That may come from tubes, with their warm-up time    

I'm always able to 'see' holes going into V+, and electrons flowing "up" from ground.  It makes no difference.  When I do the (VERY occasional) positive ground circuit, I just locate where ground is, and keep mentally saying "that's ground, there".   Whatever.  If the device I"m interested in works, I then move on to the AC side of things and leave well enough alone.

So I think what I'm getting at is, early on I was able to come up with a life-saving, drainage ditch process of "ground - don't question how or why it works, it does"...and get things built and working.    Then, over time, that 'electron flow, hole flow' thing settled in, and started to make sense.   But it took time, some interest in knowing, and some successful builds before I wanted to dig in more.     It's ok if it doesn't make perfect sense up front as long as you respect it.   

YMMV

[antonis]

I don't think of the things I build as working at the speed of light

Probably because your strumming speed is lower than the speed of light.. 

[GibsonGM]

I don't think of the things I build as working at the speed of light

Probably because your strumming speed is lower than the speed of light.. 

I don't strum.  I shred.   

[Cozybuilder]

My oh my, look up the definition for analogy and you might better understand the brilliance of Paul's replies on this forum.

[merlinb]

I just locate where ground is, and keep mentally saying "that's ground, there".

What does ground have to do with anything? (Yes, it's a leading question!   )

[GibsonGM]

I just locate where ground is, and keep mentally saying "that's ground, there".

What does ground have to do with anything? (Yes, it's a leading question!   )

I thought perhaps you liked Tina Turner?     

That statement seemed to back up what the OP said at the end of his first post, about simply reversing 'black and red'.  Yup:  just put a dot on the board over there, in this case where the  +9V is, and there's your circuit ground. Now stop thinking about it! 

I should make the caveat that I build everything point to point on perf, no PCBs, so I am generally laying stuff out as I go.  So I could confuse things if I didn't do the above; I will hunt for that ground point several times during the build.   Not the way everyone does it. 

As for really understanding it...it's ok to take one's time, enjoy the hobby, and let it 'sink in'.  It probably will eventually. 

[PRR]

> Can you see electricity? How do you know it's working the way it's supposed to

This year I can hardly see the water in my ditch. (Combination of drought and eye-trouble.)

But a blind-man could "see" his ditch-water with a tool (float on a light rod).

Likewise we "see" electric systems using tools (meters) as well as the hoped-for consequences (cone vibration and sound).

> he doesn't even know what electron flow and conventional current is.

Neither do I. Or rather: I know now, but think it is silly.

[GibsonGM]

You can see your ditch Paul?? Lucky you, I have 3' of fun on the ground that is now ice...

Holes going one way, electrons going the other...and knowing that doesn't benefit me one bit, other than it satisfied my curiosity, and a couple of books I've read told me about it.    I think the analogy was from Forrest Mimms, LOL....what that really taught me was about POLARITY, and not much more. 

Respect the polarity, and you might not let the magic blue smoke out of your ICs....

[Outlaws]

Thanks for the help.  Here is my build photo thread if you are interested.
Tone Bender MKII Professional PNP