Fuzz face "too bright"

[artr]

Hey guys.. I built a germanium fuzz face with OC71 transistors a year ago, and the thing is, it sounds great, but I have to change my amp settings before it does.
I play through an old super reverb, and when I play, I usually have treble on 5, mids around 6, bass on 2,5 - with these settings, the fuzz sounds very harsh and bad, but if I put everything on 3 and volume around 5-6, the fuzz sounds great. But when I do this, my clean sound is muffled and unusable. Is there a way to modify my fuzz, so I don't have to touch the amp settings? The voltages on the fuzz are good, so I think I basically need some low pass filtering.. The values are almost stock, except I have a 250k volume pot and a 1uf input cap - I was thinking of 500k volume and a bigger input cap, but is there anything else I can do?

[samhay]

Do you plug your guitar straight into the fuzz face, or are there pedals in between?

[diydave]

!warning: heresy!

See what gives with a buffer before the FF.
When I use my fender jaguar directly to FF (with Brigde PU and Bright-switch on), I have the sound like playing through an old crackling lofi transistor radio.
With buffer... screaming leads and full tone which melts my amp like it was butter.
Just my 2 cents.

[Cozybuilder]

Pull up an Axis Face schematic. The cap paralleling the small resistor (330 ohms) on the Q2 collector is there to tame the treble. You could experiment with values to suit your taste, say from 500pF to 4n7.

[artr]

Pull up an Axis Face schematic. The cap paralleling the small resistor (330 ohms) on the Q2 collector is there to tame the treble. You could experiment with values to suit your taste, say from 500pF to 4n7.

great, I'll try that, thanks man!
there are no other pedals in the chain, just guitar -> fuzz -> amp

[Plexi]

As Cozy says ... I would try that.
Replace the pot to a A500K, somehow it helps.
I would try to use 2.2uF input cap, and 100uf output cap.

Which schematic did you use?

[karbomusic]

What Sam says, if we don't know the conditions, we don't know the best path. If there is any buffering in front of it, even the 2.2/500K won't really solve the issue.

[artr]

What Sam says, if we don't know the conditions, we don't know the best path. If there is any buffering in front of it, even the 2.2/500K won't really solve the issue.

No buffering anywhere, just guitar, fuzz and amp

As Cozy says ... I would try that.
Replace the pot to a A500K, somehow it helps.
I would try to use 2.2uF input cap, and 100uf output cap.

Which schematic did you use?

Just put a 500k in it, definitely helped - but could still use a little more cut.. I actually already have 2.2uf cap in there, thought I'd put in a 1uf but no. I used the sunface schematic, so basically a fuzzface with a voltage trimmer on Q1 and 250k pot

[Plexi]

I built the sunface a few months ago.
Definitely is the FF with the most high end I've built.
It use 1uf at the input, and 10uf at the output (instead 2.2 and 100 respectively).
It have too a 50k trimmer at the input as attenuator: it tame's a lot the high transistors like BC108 or 109.

[karbomusic]

No buffering anywhere, just guitar, fuzz and amp

Gotcha, IMHO warning.... Not always but often... Amps with with big, clean lows and pristine highs don't tend to get along with classic fuzz faces as well as they do amps that are the opposite flavor aka big fat mids simply because a fuzz tends to accentuate lows/highs. IOW, I'd simply never try to get any classic fuzz to sound good in my Hot Rod Deluxe, it just isn't going to happen compared to one of my more mid-rangey amps. It'll end up with too much high end fizz. That's not a hard and fast rule, but it does occur for such reasons.

I have a middle-of-the-road version of this problem with my Egnator Rebel but rolling of the guitar tone knob tends to be the best cure in my world since it's not the only amp I use and others, the stock build is just what the doctor ordered..

[jaydiggity]

Sounds weird that a germanium Fuzz Face would be too trebly and harsh. If anything, mine is bass heavy and I kinda thought that was normal. Have you tried playing with your volume and tone knobs on your guitar? They have a huge effect.

[Plexi]

I agree...
It's their nature to be dark: that's what many hate/love.

Tell us your secret! 

[Snufkinoob]

Just put a 500k in it, definitely helped - but could still use a little more cut.. I actually already have 2.2uf cap in there, thought I'd put in a 1uf but no. I used the sunface schematic, so basically a fuzzface with a voltage trimmer on Q1 and 250k pot

The 2u2/1uf and 22uf caps won't be the problem if it sounds "harsh and bad". What do you mean by "bad" specifically? And after you made the volume pot a 500k, you say it could cut better, so is it now a little muffled?

Anyway, I'd start by double checking the wiring and position of the trimpot. If it's all correct, you get stock fuzz face tones with it maxed out in one direction, and dialing it back just takes out a bit of the "girth" to make a less muddy with humbuckers. I've noticed that a couple of schematic have it wired up differently. It should be: Input to the wiper/lug 2, lug 1 or 3 to the input cap, and the final lug left unconnected.

[pinkjimiphoton]

add some small resistances (47r-470r) between e and ground on each transistor. this will adjust the GAIN of the q, whereas adjusting the c resistor will adjust the BIAS of the q (both interact quite a bit in the biasing)

but a lower gain may give you the sweeter tone. a fuzzface when turned down slightly becomes a treble booster, for better or worse, and adds a bit of compression

this is the sunface model?
imho, they got way too big a resistance between the 2 stages.... 4

if this is it:



470k is like, UGEly different from the 330R or 470R of a stock fuzzface. its got the gain set way too high, and that will make the entire fuzz sound too gainy and trebly as you turn it down.

in my experience and experimentation, bigger than about 1k there and the fuzz becomes too much fuzz, and is useless unless ya want muddy tearing velcro. it loses all its civility, and it doesn't interact right with your guitar.

sounds like ya have stacked up buffers.

so i would change that one resistor, play with adding e resistors of low resistance to both q's and do as others have suggested,
2.2uF-4.7uF input cap will let more bottom in.. go with around a 390-470n output cap, too.

you can also add small snubber caps to the feedback loops of the q's, which will work when the effect is turned down, but make it even more sludge like when guitar is cranked.

you may wanna try "faking" a variable cap between c and b of q2....  connect b of q2 to the wiper of a 100-500k pot, and connect pin one to about a 4.7-10pF cap and pin 3 to around a 2.2n-3.3n cap. tie the free ends of the caps together and connect that to c of q2.

that SHOULD be able to let you add a tone control by exploiting the feedback of the stage.. the bigger the cap, the more feedback, the less treble you hear. on one side you have virtually no treble reduction, on the other enough to make it pretty muffled.
you won't lose as much gain as some other tone controls, and it may suit your needs. the more ya turn the pot, to one side or the other, the more you can sweep between almost no treble reduction, and a lot of treble reduction.

not sure if that will work with this circuit yet. i did it with my monkey balls project and the new version suzy q, and it works great.
it MAY wanna see a small cap between b of q2 and the wiper, this would be just for experimenting as i haven't tried it on a fuzz face circuit yet.

i think the big thing is this circuit is not meant to be a 60's style fuzz face, its geared to the guys who leave their guitars cranked and want fuzz only as a special effect, not the gurus and worshippers who's whole mojo is the interaction between the sacred plank and the sainted box.

jmo's, ymmv

[pinkjimiphoton]

!warning: heresy!

See what gives with a buffer before the FF.
When I use my fender jaguar directly to FF (with Brigde PU and Bright-switch on), I have the sound like playing through an old crackling lofi transistor radio.
With buffer... screaming leads and full tone which melts my amp like it was butter.
Just my 2 cents.

SACRILEGE!!!



buffers work fine after fuzzfaces. if your guitar is on 10, they work fine. if you HAVE to have a wah first, they help... tho a simple 50k pot works as well and is way cheaper.

but a buffer before a fuzz face?

most of the time, a buffer before a fuzzface will make it even MORE of a treble booster in my experience

[pinkjimiphoton]

I built the sunface a few months ago.
Definitely is the FF with the most high end I've built.
It use 1uf at the input, and 10uf at the output (instead 2.2 and 100 respectively).
It have too a 50k trimmer at the input as attenuator: it tame's a lot the high transistors like BC108 or 109.

remember too, you can use a cap as a bright control on a pot by bridging the input and output of the pot with a small cap...
and can also bridge the input to GROUND and shunt treble that way too... if ya don't keep your knobs pegged like i tend to on the fuzz itself.
you can make stuff brighter or darker as you turn up or down depending on the application.

[diydave]

SACRILEGE!!!



buffers work fine after fuzzfaces. if your guitar is on 10, they work fine. if you HAVE to have a wah first, they help... tho a simple 50k pot works as well and is way cheaper.

but a buffer before a fuzz face?

most of the time, a buffer before a fuzzface will make it even MORE of a treble booster in my experience

Well...
I agree to disagree, sir. 

[Electric Warrior]

470k is like, UGEly different from the 330R or 470R of a stock fuzzface. its got the gain set way too high, and that will make the entire fuzz sound too gainy and trebly as you turn it down.

That's just a typo. They actually use 470Ω and 680Ω resistors.

[karbomusic]

Re: Buffer

Wonder why there are so many threads about trying to emulate a non-buffered FF when a buffer is needed like when trying to blend a Fuzz/OD at the same time? The loading of the guitar is part of it, with a buffer you remove that and it usually gets brighter and fizzier. Thusly, if it sounds too bright, the starting point is to see if that is still the case when going directly in, no buffer.

[pinkjimiphoton]

precisely.

fulltone's 69 pedal added a simple 50k  input pot. this passive "buffer" is all ya really need.
other buffers will do exactly as you describe.

buffers rob the guitar of its interaction with the guitar. i mean... think about the word BUFFER.

it is there to SEPARATE the two circuits like a wall with a gate in it. there is no way a buffer, meant to separate two circuits electronically, is going to allow the circuits to merge. mojo and balderdash in the end. about the only reason to use a buffer is if you HAVE to have something before it like a wah, but even then it doesn't work well. i built every wah buffer i found on the net years ago in search of a holy grail.

the best bet was a simple passive series resistance. every buffer i tried sucked and completely killed the interaction with the fuzz. yeah, it will still clean up, sorta... but it will be unnaturally bright. always.

a proper fuzzface interacting with your guitar you should be able to find a point where you can't really tell the diff between the guitar rolled way back with the fuzz on (other than making it cleaner and more treble boosted below that point)  or off.

i have heard many claims to the contrary, but to this day... and i've been playing rock n roll since i was a kind in 1969... i still am waiting to see this actually work out in the real world.

remember, a fuzzface is for all intents a treble booster with a big ass input cap and a boost at the end of it. as you cut the impedance feeding the signal, the tone changes with the volume, you can pretty much mimic every classic rock guitar tone right from your guitar.