Question about time-based effects infront of amps.

[steveyraff]

Hey guys,

This is more a question about the behaviour of amps and pedals, rather than a build question.

I've played in a blues band now for about 7 years. For blues, its a less than common set up, but I love the tones I get, and I receive favourable comments from fellow guitarists in audiences, so its not something I want to change much.

It's an Orange Dual Terror. I have one channel set to clean with a hint of crunch, and the other channel is a lead overdrive boost.

I use very little effects - my board is just a tuner, a compressor that always stays on, and a clean boost pedal. Thats it.

The only thing that has always irritated me about this rig, is that the amplifier does NOT have an effects loop, nor does it have built in reverb. I've been getting back ok all these years without any of this, or other effects, but especially now that we are writing a lot of our own stuff, and I have built a lot of pedals at this stage, I'd love to be able to spice things up a little.

My sound is really dry, so before I started building my own pedals, I bought an EHX Nano Verb. It was a decent enough little reverb, and it sounded really good on my clean channel, but of course, as soon as I hit that overdrive channel on, it became overpowering and washed out. This put me off ever trying any delays, chorus etc.

My question is this:
Through building pedals for other people, I've came across a few really nice overdrive pedals that sound just as good if not better than my amps own overdrive. I am wondering, if I stop using my amps over drive channel, and start using only its clean channel, would I be able to use reverb and delay pedals in front of the amp more successfully by using pedal overdrives instead of switching to my amps OD channel.

Its hard to explain properly so I hope I am making at least a little bit of sense here.

Any advice welcome - thanks!

[Ice-9]

I think I understand what you are getting at, example if I put an echo or reverb pedal in front of the amp and then add the amps crunch or distortion, it will sound horrible which is why I would put these types of effects into the amps send/return, if it has one.

But, if I use a clean amp sound with my pedals in the order of ' comp, dist/overdrive then delay and modulation effects, then yes that works well. If I was to use the delay/modulation effects pedals first then the dist pedal I will get horrible overtones and an awful sound. So when using drive and delay/modulation type effects I would always have the drive pedals before the delay/modulation effects. Unless of course I was wanting that 'orrible sound for a particular reason.

[steveyraff]

I think I understand what you are getting at, example if I put an echo or reverb pedal in front of the amp and then add crunch or distortion, it will sound horrible which is why I would put these types of effects into the amps send/return, if it has one.

But, if I use a clean amp sound with my pedals in the order of ' comp, dist/overdrive then delay and modulation effects, then yes that works well. If I was to use the delay/modulation effects pedals first then the dist pedal then again I will get horrible overtones and an awful sound.

Thank you. You wrote that much more clearly than I did lol Yes that is what I meant.

Basically, I am trying to figure out how to add reverb or delay to my set up, using the same amp which doesn't have an effects loops. So I was thinking of using pedal-based OD/Dist instead, and running the time based effects AFTER then drive pedals.

If this works, then it would be a solution to my problem!

[Ice-9]

I think I understand what you are getting at, example if I put an echo or reverb pedal in front of the amp and then add crunch or distortion, it will sound horrible which is why I would put these types of effects into the amps send/return, if it has one.

But, if I use a clean amp sound with my pedals in the order of ' comp, dist/overdrive then delay and modulation effects, then yes that works well. If I was to use the delay/modulation effects pedals first then the dist pedal then again I will get horrible overtones and an awful sound.

Thank you. You wrote that much more clearly than I did lol Yes that is what I meant.

Basically, I am trying to figure out how to add reverb or delay to my set up, using the same amp which doesn't have an effects loops. So I was thinking of using pedal-based OD/Dist instead, and running the time based effects AFTER then drive pedals.

If this works, then it would be a solution to my problem!

The other possibility would be to add a send /return to your amp, it shouldn't be a big job especially if you can get a schematic.

[steveyraff]

I think I understand what you are getting at, example if I put an echo or reverb pedal in front of the amp and then add crunch or distortion, it will sound horrible which is why I would put these types of effects into the amps send/return, if it has one.

But, if I use a clean amp sound with my pedals in the order of ' comp, dist/overdrive then delay and modulation effects, then yes that works well. If I was to use the delay/modulation effects pedals first then the dist pedal then again I will get horrible overtones and an awful sound.

Thank you. You wrote that much more clearly than I did lol Yes that is what I meant.

Basically, I am trying to figure out how to add reverb or delay to my set up, using the same amp which doesn't have an effects loops. So I was thinking of using pedal-based OD/Dist instead, and running the time based effects AFTER then drive pedals.

If this works, then it would be a solution to my problem!

The other possibility would be to add a send /return to your amp, it shouldn't be a big job especially if you can get a schematic.

Can't be done apparently. I have read up on that one before and there are also a few other companies out there offering a mod to add an FX loop to the Dual Terror, but they can only ever do it to one of the channels, not across both.

[Ice-9]

I've just looked up that Orange amp and a lot of people on forums have questioned the issue, I can't find a schematic for the dual Terror but there must be a way to implement an FX loop on both channels, i'm sure a few people around here could come up with something and it does sound a worthwhile mod.

[steveyraff]

I've just looked up that Orange amp and a lot of people on forums have questioned the issue, I can't find a schematic for the dual Terror but there must be a way to implement an FX loop on both channels, i'm sure a few people around here could come up with something and it does sound a worthwhile mod.

I'd have thought if someone had came up with it, one of the companies online offering the mod would be able to do it across both channels - but you may be right.

I guess the bit I am leaving out is a longer term project I've been researching for this last few months, where instead of a pedal board, I was planning on rehousing a few pedals, and building a few, and putting them all into one big enclosure. This is one of the questions I wanted to clear up before I started thinking further about it. The TC Polytuner will be tricker to rehouse - I'd need to Dremel out a window for the display or something. But I was thinking of putting a comp in there, a double drive like a KOT, a boost, a verb/delay and maybe a chorus. Since I need so few, I thought it would be a cool idea and very convenient.

[Ice-9]

Sounds like a good multi pedal project, I look forward to seeing how you get on with that, pictures and stuff

A little while ago I bought a EVH5150 50 watt head which has a different but similar problem to solve, 3 ch amp but ch 1 and 2 share all the same controls and the gain/volume setting between 1+2 is just way off, Voodoo amps or whatever have a solution but expensive, I came up with my own mods involving relays and dual concentric controls (I guess similar to voodoo amps but at a fraction of the cost). so with a circuit diagram of the Orange I would think it possible to do FX send / return, I mean shit man it can't be that difficult to work out.

Do you have a link to a schematic, I would be happy to look over it to see what I can find to add a send return that would work on both chls. maybe its not possible but I seriously doubt it. I have been wrong on many occasions though . Lol

[steveyraff]

Sounds like a good multi pedal project, I look forward to seeing how you get on with that, pictures and stuff

A little while ago I bought a EVH5150 50 watt head which has a different but similar problem to solve, 3 ch amp but ch 1 and 2 share all the same controls and the gain/volume setting between 1+2 is just way off, Voodoo amps or whatever have a solution but expensive, I came up with my own mods involving relays and dual concentric controls (I guess similar to voodoo amps but at a fraction of the cost). so with a circuit diagram of the Orange I would think it possible to do FX send / return, I mean shit man it can't be that difficult to work out.

Do you have a link to a schematic, I would be happy to look over it to see what I can find to add a send return that would work on both chls. maybe its not possible but I seriously doubt it. I have been wrong on many occasions though . Lol

Been over a year now since I looked into that issue with the Orange Dual Terror, so I don't have any schematics unfortunately. You sound much better at these kinds of things than me, though! I bet if you came up with a solution you could probably make a good line of work doing it for people. I know when I looked into it there was an awful lot of people wanting to see if it was possible!

[Transmogrifox]

One out-there idea is something I saw on a stage rig (probably a lot of popular performers do this live).  In this case it was Matchbox20 stage setup -- they were really big on keeping stage noise down but loved the sound of their amps.

They put their amps in a big foam-insulated box with a mic.  Then all time-based effects were applied to the signal coming off the mic preamp (in this case rack-mount stuff, but doing it with pedals easy too).

In the end you get the tone you have been loving all these years but have a chance to do studio-like post-processing stuff and send it out the mains & into your stage monitor.

Then your pedalboard project has a send return to/from the amp and includes a mic preamp for the return channel. 

If you're doing mostly small-venue stuff where you don't really have a mains PA system suitable for guitar tone (like vocals only) then this wouldn't be a good solution since you need another amp to use for driving the speakers (although if you have the money this isn't a bad solution).

As for answering your question more directly,
comp->dirt->delay/chorus/verb/flange->amp  As long as the amp tone is mostly clean then this works out well.

Then it's a matter of trying some dirt boxes to give you something as satisfying as the orange dual terror.  You might just want to build a real tube preamp and tweak to taste.  For example, the Real McTube is a good starting point.  You can probably get close to the Terror preamp design by tweaking components:

[steveyraff]

One out-there idea is something I saw on a stage rig (probably a lot of popular performers do this live).  In this case it was Matchbox20 stage setup -- they were really big on keeping stage noise down but loved the sound of their amps.

They put their amps in a big foam-insulated box with a mic.  Then all time-based effects were applied to the signal coming off the mic preamp (in this case rack-mount stuff, but doing it with pedals easy too).

In the end you get the tone you have been loving all these years but have a chance to do studio-like post-processing stuff and send it out the mains & into your stage monitor.

Then your pedalboard project has a send return to/from the amp and includes a mic preamp for the return channel. 

If you're doing mostly small-venue stuff where you don't really have a mains PA system suitable for guitar tone (like vocals only) then this wouldn't be a good solution since you need another amp to use for driving the speakers (although if you have the money this isn't a bad solution).

As for answering your question more directly,
comp->dirt->delay/chorus/verb/flange->amp  As long as the amp tone is mostly clean then this works out well.

Then it's a matter of trying some dirt boxes to give you something as satisfying as the orange dual terror.  You might just want to build a real tube preamp and tweak to taste.  For example, the Real McTube is a good starting point.  You can probably get close to the Terror preamp design by tweaking components:

Lots of very useful info there for me to look into. Many thanks for all of that! Appreciate it.

[Chris S]

Hey Stevey, I've got a similar problem. Just in case you haven't thought of it I've found turning the delay repeat volume to about half of how I have it clean and turn down the number of repeats a little too. Will give me something that's not as good as a in the loop effect but still useable.