Replacing a power cord on a vintage pedal

[drummer4gc]

How would you go about replacing a built-in power cord on an old Ross pedal?

I just got one on the bench with a frayed, broken, cable that was beyond repair and needed replacement. I decided to grab a similar looking cable (flat, grounded - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0153T1O3Y/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1), chop the female end off, strip some insulation, and solder it to the board, just like the original.

If this was my pedal, I'd be perfectly happy with repairing it this way. However, I feel like there is a strong responsibility one assumes when working on the mains-side of someone else's gear, and I'm having second thoughts about my "chop the end off" method as being the safest option. So, does anyone have a better, safer alternative? With links to specific products?

Thanks!

[R.G.]

You're caught on the horns of a dilemma. I don't know your physical location, but in the USA, repairing it and improving it to modern safety specs leaves you liable in case anything goes wrong. So does your repairing it the the >>original<< specs, because if anything goes wrong, you could be sued for "you were in the electronics repair business, so you should have known the original was unsafe".

I have become very legal-adverse, not only because I'm a weenie, but also because I have had entirely more exposure to legalities than I ever wanted through my history designing power supplies for A Big Computer Company and through some unfortunate legal actions related to a company we own part of.

So if you are worried if this could cause you legal problems ... yep, ask a liability lawyer. It might help if the customer signed a release authorizing you to make whatever repairs you are to make, absolving you of any liability, agreeing to release, hold harmless, and indemnify you for any repair actions taken on their behalf. If they're still standing there when they see that, it might be good.

The safety standards on old Ross stuff are almost certainly not up to today's standards. The safest option is to refuse the repair. The next safest is to learn how to do line input setups which will pass IEC60650 (I think that's the number) but that's a stiff requirement.  I can tell you some things, but first you have to indemnify >> me << for my suggestions.   

[Rob Strand]

As RG indicate there's so many legal ramifications on this type of repair its got to the point you are better off not touching it.

So, does anyone have a better, safer alternative?

You could completely remove the mains stuff altogether and fit a DC jack.
If you supply the plug-pack then I suspect you are the one that has to make sure
it complies with the electrical standards, and is correctly rated.
The new plug pack also adds to the cost of the repair.

[antonis]

I can tell you some things, but first you have to indemnify >> me << for my suggestions.

How true...!!! 

[drummer4gc]

Thanks for your thoughts - I think adding a DC jack and converting it to run on low voltage is the ticket. Much appreciated!

[R.G.]

Good choice. Puts the AC mains safety back on the adapter, whose manufacturer has a lot more resources to qualify the things under the safety standards.

[thermionix]

Replacing an old, frayed AC cord with a new one?  I'm confused about what the concern is here.

[Groovenut]

Replacing an old, frayed AC cord with a new one?  I'm confused about what the concern is here.

Litigation

[PRR]

> chop the female end off, strip some insulation, and solder it to the board, just like the original.

I don't see any strain-relief mentioned.

Or even getting green yellow blue white brown black in their right places.

And Grn/GrnYel fixed to a dedicated chassis screw so-big with a toothed washer.

There's basically two outcomes. Nothing ever goes wrong. Or "anything" goes wrong (maybe not even related to the cord) and you get your ass chewed off. I'm sure some of the stories R.G. can sell involved _NO_ fault of R.G. or BCC or AmpCo, but customer stupidity or greed. Do you feel lucky?

[Rob Strand]

Replacing an old, frayed AC cord with a new one?  I'm confused about what the concern is here.

It's more to do with worse-case scenarios if something goes wrong.
Like the OP said, if you were doing it for yourself you would probably just replace it.
Then there's the issue that RG brought up is that old devices don't comply to modern rules.

Ideally when you send something to the manufacturer for repair there is a whole process of selected testing before the device is released back to the customer.  If you did a repair involving mains wiring that might trigger mains isolation tests, earth impedance tests.   The manufacturer might also keep records of the test results (that also shows it was safe when it left the repair shop).  The problem with old equipment is it might not pass modern test requirements, or the whole way it's made doesn't follow current practice.   It's a can of worms.

I remember old combo amps where you could reach up into the open back and touch the bare mains connections on the power switch.   There was no insulation or boots over the connections.

[R.G.]

G.N. is right. USA legal practice is that you can sue anyone for anything, any time. There are remarkably few absolute defenses against suits, even frivilous ones.

Even a totally spurious suit can ruin, not just your day, but your financial life. Most civil attorneys that are worth employing won't take the case without a retainer up front of about $10,000. The good ones are $300 - $1000 per hour of their time, which includes phone calls and meetings with you, answering email, and reading and thinking about the opposite side's claims, and preparing any paper work needed, and a lot is needed. If you're not represented, or are poorly represented, the opposite side may well just get a quick decision in their favor. At a guess, getting a liability or injury suit from first notice to start of a trial will cost maybe $100,000 if there is not a huge amount of fact finding, depositions, dueling petitions, and so on.

That's to get to the start of trial. A modest trial can easily be that much again, win or lose. In the USA legal system, there is no winner-take-all. Everyone pays their own legal fees except in certain special cases.

You don't want the thread holding that sword over your head to break. In fact, you don't want someone to sue you even in a trivially stupid way. And suits involving personal injury or death are the very, very, very worst and most expensive, win or lose.

With that bit of stage setting, consider electrical safety standards. The USA has NO mandatory safety standards, although states, counties, and cities may. You have to look that up on your own, or your attorney's time. It does have Underwriter's Laboratories, which is a >private< testing agency set up by insurance companies to try to weed out the worst, most dangerous products by setting some kind of reasonable standards. No one is legally obligated to meet UL standards, in the USA anyway. But if someone gets hurt and you have not even tried to get your stuff reviewed and compared to the standards that UL writes, you may be subject to a jury adding multiplied damages as punishment for your reckless disregard for the safety of your fellow man.

And it's worse repairing old equipment. No amp or pedal manufactured in the 1950s through the 1990s would pass today's safety standards and a fair inspection. So if you repair such stuff, you have to either (1) not do it at all, based on danger to YOU from legal actions, (2) repair it to just the way it was, showing the jury that you don't care what modern standards are, (3) update it to modern safety wiring - only if you make a mistake and someone later gets shocked, you could be liable for not knowing or executing the complex safety dance correctly. Finally (4) you could try to explain this to the customer and have them execute a release of liability before you do the repairs.

It's not fun, in any aspect. And the OP was perfectly correct - you can do the reasonable thing for yourself, presuming that you won't sue yourself.

Although, given the state of the civil litigation system I'm sure that someone may try suing themselves for something.

I wish that was funnier than it sounds.

I remember old combo amps where you could reach up into the open back and touch the bare mains connections on the power switch.   There was no insulation or boots over the connections.

Yep. And another thing. Power tubes? They get real hot - like 180C-200C hot. That's an instant blister/burn hazard, and safety standards forbid allowing customers from touching those, tested with several pounds of force on a test "finger" that's about nine inches long, with three joints and a moderate point on it, including forcing that "finger" through the speaker cones, even if you have perforated metal screens to keep inquiring fingers out of the back. Even trying my best to comply with standards I reviewed, learned, updated myself on, studied, and sweated over, I didn't see that one coming. Tubes now have to be isolated from casual touching to pass. How many vintage amps have power tubes exposed through the back? Um... all of them before maybe the 2000s.

[thermionix]

As an amp repair dude, I replace AC cords all the time, don't think twice about it.  A frequent request is to swap a 2-pronger for a grounded cable.  Remove ground cap(s).  Make it safer than it was.  If confused by wire colors, beep it out.

Thermionix' free legal advice:  Own firearms and ignore lawyers. 

[PRR]

> someone may try suing themselves for something. I wish that was funnier than it sounds.
"A Utah woman has been cleared to sue herself for killing her husband in a car accident..... A court ruled that Bagley, as the representative of her husband's estate, can sue Bagley as the driver so she can seek ..." {insurance settlement}

[Rob Strand]

With that bit of stage setting, consider electrical safety standards. The USA has NO mandatory safety standards, although states, counties, and cities may. You have to look that up on your own, or your attorney's time. It does have Underwriter's Laboratories,

Interesting.  Aren't the electrical standards enforced?   I'm pretty sure medical products won't get past FDA unless it complies with UL.   Even if you could get past that, the hospitals often have their own policy barrier.

Yep. And another thing. Power tubes? They get real hot - like 180C-200C hot.

Good one.  Probably triggers a whole heap of labels and a tube replacement procedure in the manual as well!

As an amp repair dude, I replace AC cords all the time, don't think twice about it.  A frequent request is to swap a 2-pronger for a grounded cable.  Remove ground cap(s).  Make it safer than it was.  If confused by wire colors, beep it out.

It's becoming a tricky business because of all the stuff RG pointed out.   You can have good intentions but at the end of the day if something goes wrong it can get out of hand.

[drummer4gc]

All good thoughts for sure.

Thermionix, I posted originally after thinking about the difference between repurposing a laptop cord by chopping the end off/stripping wires vs. using something designed as a replacement power cord and intended for soldering, which I had trouble finding in the same style. My guess is that there is no manufacturing difference between two such products, but the latter is likely tested specifically for soldering and so approved by UL, where as the former would likely work the same but not have the all important stamp. Again, I wouldn't think twice about doing this for my own gear, and I'm not particularly worried about litigation, but there is a sort of responsibility and high standard that I'd like to stick to when doing work for other folks, and this felt like gray area to me. After reading responses and thinking more about doing the work "properly", I figured that the way Ross had these power cords installed in the first place really didn't feel "proper" by today's standards, even if (PRR) the colors all ended up in the right holes and the original Heyco-style strain relief fit snugly.

I'll bet money that going with a DC jack and abandoning the AC transformer is gonna quiet up the effect too, as a side bonus. But I'm curious about your point - what should the standard be for amp techs when they replace a vintage amp's lamp cord with a proper, modern grounded cord, fuse it up properly, and ditch the death cap? That's all standard work, makes the amp unquestionably safer, and I doubt anyone is getting their customers to sign release forms.

[Rob Strand]

'll bet money that going with a DC jack and abandoning the AC transformer is gonna quiet up the effect too,

The only downside I can see is it may de-value a vintage effect.
If there are any 115V or 240V labels on the casing you will have to
removed those.  (As some nong could put HV into the DC jack.)

[thermionix]

intended for soldering

Stranded copper wire is stranded copper wire.  As long as it's not old/corroded, it will solder fine.  I've cut the female end off computer-type AC cords on many occasions.  Obviously you need to handle the current requirements, probably can't find an AC cord that is insufficient for a Ross pedal.

[Ben N]

What an enlightening/depressing thread.

[Rob Strand]

What an enlightening/depressing thread.

I'm waiting for the day when you have to write don't fart too close to the equipment in the manual because there's a risk of it catching fire.

[R.G.]

Interesting.  Aren't the electrical standards enforced?   I'm pretty sure medical products won't get past FDA unless it complies with UL.   Even if you could get past that, the hospitals often have their own policy barrier.

Don't get me started.

Ooops, too late. 

First, there are no USA federal laws that require all electrical goods pass UL certification. Which makes sense, because UL is a >>private<< organization, started by insurance companies to get some kind of handle on what was wildly unsafe versus having some thought about how to make them safe(r). There are laws requiring certain goods, medical products among them, to be tested for safety. I  believe some of the medical device enforcement from the Food and Drug Administration and it's issued regulations do this. But guitar amps, pedals, toasters, computers, etc., no.

The impetus for following the UL standards, excepting for the unusual cases of things like medical devices, is enforced by the civil liability trial system. The civil trial system is vastly more punitive than enforcement fines and such, but much more random in enforcement. In fact, many people view liabilty suits as a kind of lottery. Get hurt (even THINK you got hurt) and you get a lottery ticket for a lawsuit.

It was not this way in much of Europe, where the general case was to have a government run testing lab do the safety testing to the country's safety standards, and prohibit sales unless the rules were met. ACKKK! Every country had its own rules and standards, and testing lab, and to be legal all over Europe (and the world in general) you had to get safety testing done in every country, to a different set of rules. The only prize there was that if your product passed, the country awarded you a fair degree of immunity to suits, seeing as you'd passed their standards and were "safe".

I'm not sure exactly how, but in the run up to the EU, they quit doing that model, and adopted a more privatized model. The testing labs were kicked out to fund and run themselves, the various safety agencies got together to form the standards side of the IEC, and the country passed laws saying "you can't sell stuff that harms anyone; if you have not passed the safety standards tests, you are presumed to harm people, and must not sell your goods.". This was great if you wanted to not have to get tested to different standards in every country, because you only had to run one gauntlet. However, you still faced the "American model" of lawsuits even if you passed.

But I digress. In the USA, our lawmakers promise to solve problems by passing new laws. Nice idea. Promise voters to stop all this carjacking by makiing carjacking illegal. There, we passed the law, problem solved. Only carjackings go on. Well, the police just aren't doing their jobs well enough. Not my problem, I introduced laws to make it illegal, so elect me again and I'll make it even MORE illegal this time.

Passing laws in a time of underperforming police and prosecutors and overstuffed prisons does not prevent illegal acts. It merely encourages "prosecutorial discression", and eventually laws are there, fully formed and waiting, and no one enforces them. In many cities, for instance, police will not respond to shoplifting complaints under some dollar amount. I have been told the previous version of the DOJ got Chicago and perhaps other schools to simply not report certain classes of crimes from misdemeanor crimes up through the lower felonies under the "Promise" program. Too many crimes reported? Let's fix that and not report them.

I go through that to illustrate the issue on what is enforced, as you say. Enforcement of the safety standards does happen, but it's by the liability lottery, not through federal law. Some cities - San Francisco, I believe - does require UL certification under certain circumstances, as is their perfect right. I think.

Passing laws and enforcing them, especially enforcing them uniformly and fairly, are not the same thing.