bass compression/limiting project advice sought

[pinkjimiphoton]

hi folks
my bassist roger is the latest target of the "it's too loud" witch hunt at my tuesday nite gig... the stage, for all intents, shoots into a room that literally is a folded horn... on stage, the bass disappears below a certain volume, but the reinforcement of the room itself actually amplifies it... its louder in the room than on stage!

i've demoted myself to a fender champ 30 that is literally set where the volume kicks in on the clean side, using the low gain input. of COURSE there's enough fuzz to still make this useably loud and controllable for me, as a lowly bandleader/lead guitarist.

nobody bitches at me, but poor rocky's getting shit every gig in this room.

so last nite i brought one of the two diy comps i've built <one, the dod based comp barry at guitarpcb sells, lives on my live board in case i need to clamp levels> and the one i brought for rog was one of mictester's really simple comps. i had changed the input cap to double stock, hoping that would help with the bass.

tried it last nite. it worked, squished the be-all out of his poor rickenmocker i built for him, it was fairly transparent until he thumped on it hard, at which point it got a bit dirty... too dirty to use. <for me? woulda been fine if it was ME playing bass, but we have very different styles> <you probably didn't know my actual supposed profession was supposed to be a classical music upright bass violist before sex drugs and rocknroll saved me from that shit>

so anyways, i wanna build something for him to shut the haters up some.
it needs to be really tonally transparent, offer some decent squish, and since rock is an EE, lots of knobs are ok.
also not sure if a compressor or a limiter is more what he needs.. the key is really not to change his tone but to bring down the dynamics to the point peeps quit bitching.

like, if i stand in the middle of the room, and say "whom" it sounds like "whom"

on stage, it becomes " WHOOOMMMMMMM" from the room resonances. its ridiculous. the farking band leader does NOT want us to move the stage area to a better spot accoustically... singers. gah! no knowledge of anything there other than how to use her pipes... she's AWESOME, but .... no amunt of explanation of fletcher munson effects, standing waves, sonic reflection, corner loading or anything will reach her. unfortunately, its her gig, and tho i am the "bandleader" it comes down to her say on everything. <the band is actually 2/3rds of my band, which makes it even funnier in its way cuz the guys work for "mr photon" lol>

<we're actually gonna set the stage up in a different part of the room next week, which orter make her head implode>

since i've never actually played electric bass other than in the studio and a handful of live gigs where i was covering for someone else, i know nothing of this world..to me, basses have no frets, ever, and have about a 50 inch scale length

what's the best diy friendly way to proceed?  extra points if i can build it on vero or perf. i just wanna help a brotha out, cuz its unfair to pick on him about volume when in reality its the shitty room, not him, his technique, or equipment. its one of them rooms where quite literally the difference between a couple ohm's resistance on a pot can take you from inaudible to too loud.

so i figure a comp may be a good thing for him. i'd rather not lose my tuesday nite gig!! <free spirit, vernon, ct, every tuesday nite if anybody here is ever in the area and wants to come play a while!> and i gotta find a way to make all these disparagements work together somehow.

thanks peeps, you'se the bestest <3

[Kipper4]

Hey Jimi.
You might like to search for Jon Pattons Bearhug compressor.
I think it will do what you need.
Rich

[pinkjimiphoton]

awesome, thanks rich, i will google it up! i like jon's designs. thanks bro!!

[PRR]

Put the big bass amp out in the room. Listen what comes back from the room, and try to balance. If sync is lost, add a small shy-bass amp near the bass player for sync.

[pinkjimiphoton]

hahhaha maybe if i had roadies still. we're all old men, none of us are gonna go thru all that
the prob isn't the size of the amp... its a 200 watt accoustic 1x15 combo barely cracked. the problem is the room.
it was once a 711 and the way they "redesigned the room" into this bar, oh, 40 years ago, its like being in a horn or auditorium with a band shell. it just projects everything into what's effectively a cone shape, the stage area now is the highest point in the room, on level with the bar/dancefloor. then there's an atrium sorta thing with a high ceiling and huge glass windows into a lower level. this area is surprisingly accoustically dead, which makes no sense at all seeing as how it has stone tiles for the floor, and wall length windows going 15 feet or so into the air. its ridiculous.
down the room a little further and you have a pool room blocked off with a wall with a huge glass window in it so the barkeep can monitor the shenanagans. this all adds up to the difference between a 15" speaker with and without a baffle. the room cancels highs and upper mids and totally reinforces bass frequencies. its the weirdest place i ever played.

i literally got bitched at once there for playing an accoustic guitar too loud.

but hey, the bread is decent and for old geezers its perfect. we play a couple tunes then start bringing up all the local talent, which equates to free libations and pay to sit on my arse and hang out. i love it.

but the room is becoming a huge issue. i wanna squash the witch hunt before it starts up again. i  can't believe i'm not the target for a change

[DIY Bass]

I have just made a Schalltechnik_04 Pumpernickel comp.  It is a THAT 4301 based comp and sounds great.  It is very transparent.  It will go from very light compression to infinity:1 limiting, and has a blend, so you can blend some of the clean signal back in to recover some playing dynamic if you want/need to.  Also has a gain reduction meter so you can see what is going on.  The schematic is not available (you can buy a kit with everything in it), but there are other 4301 based schematics around and the meter looks as if it is straight from a THAT design note.

[Gus]

If I understand correctly the issue is worse with the lower notes?
If so maybe try  1st order high pass filter(HPF) corner frequency at about 400Hz to start before the amp.
you might/will need to move the frequency up.
You could then try a 2nd order HPF

Is the set up bass(passive I would guess) into amp or is there something between the bass and amp?

It also sounds like you might/will want to reduce the lows from the guitar(s)

[pinkjimiphoton]

If I understand correctly the issue is worse with the lower notes?

hi gus!
yeah, pretty much everything in the bass range just turns to total earbleed mud. its horrible. seems to have multiple resonances in there. like the bass equivalent of an anti anechoic room or something!!!

If so maybe try  1st order high pass filter(HPF) corner frequency at about 400Hz to start before the amp.
you might/will need to move the frequency up.
You could then try a 2nd order HPF

i agree. if i could get him to cut the low end on his amp, he'd hear himself better, and the room would be more manageable. but he's old and stuck in his ways tonally... an old ampeg guy, so he likes a bit of warm and growly. he's playing pretty quiet, but in the ROOM its still louder than by the amp. and there's no arguing with the guy. tried!!! lol
he's playing mostly a rick 4001 copy i built for him a couple years ago with some firebird pickups in it, so its not a super bottom heavy instrument to begin with. his pbass is even MORE of a nitemare.

Is the set up bass(passive I would guess) into amp or is there something between the bass and amp?

yeah, passive bass into an accoustic 200 watt 1x15 combo. he does use a polytune between the bass and amp, but that's it.

It also sounds like you might/will want to reduce the lows from the guitar(s)

yeah, we do that. i actually have hi pass filters in all my guitars with at least 3 knobs and tend to run my amps with the bass off.  at one point, i had my little 30 watt fender inside a closet facing the dang wall, and THAT was never quite loud enough... which, predictably, also got me bitched at. <sounded great tho!>

i even have a little 3 band active eq i built into a stomp on top of my amp so i can dial in whatever without having to try and see the amp knobs <being blind as a bat does not come in handy sometimes live lol>
i keep the bass cut on that too, just a hair of mid and treble boost, and usually set a little below unity gain.

the problem is totally the room, and only seems to be with bass frequencies. i've never encountered anywhere else like it.

[pinkjimiphoton]

I have just made a Schalltechnik_04 Pumpernickel comp.  It is a THAT 4301 based comp and sounds great.  It is very transparent.  It will go from very light compression to infinity:1 limiting, and has a blend, so you can blend some of the clean signal back in to recover some playing dynamic if you want/need to.  Also has a gain reduction meter so you can see what is going on.  The schematic is not available (you can buy a kit with everything in it), but there are other 4301 based schematics around and the meter looks as if it is straight from a THAT design note.

sounds like it may be perfect. i don't mind buying a kit once in a while if its not highway robbery butt rape priced.
gotta link? or perhaps i should google?

is it the circuit shown on page 8 of the datasheet bychance?

http://www.thatcorp.com/datashts/THAT_4301_Datasheet.pdf

thanks for the suggestion, looks like it would be a fairly easy build on vero!

[EBK]

If you try everything you've come up with so far and still fail, I can let you borrow the compressor I use with my bass.  It is a fairly complicated circuit based on a THAT 4316, but I have built it on vero and can give you the layout.  Schematic and details are at the following link, and it is very transparent and excellent with bass, in my opinion (it is always on in my setup): http://www.thatcorp.com/pedals/4316%20Battery-Powered%20One%20Knob%20Squeezer.pdf

[DIY Bass]

I have just made a Schalltechnik_04 Pumpernickel comp.  It is a THAT 4301 based comp and sounds great.  It is very transparent.  It will go from very light compression to infinity:1 limiting, and has a blend, so you can blend some of the clean signal back in to recover some playing dynamic if you want/need to.  Also has a gain reduction meter so you can see what is going on.  The schematic is not available (you can buy a kit with everything in it), but there are other 4301 based schematics around and the meter looks as if it is straight from a THAT design note.

sounds like it may be perfect. i don't mind buying a kit once in a while if its not highway robbery butt rape priced.
gotta link? or perhaps i should google?

is it the circuit shown on page 8 of the datasheet bychance?

http://www.thatcorp.com/datashts/THAT_4301_Datasheet.pdf

thanks for the suggestion, looks like it would be a fairly easy build on vero!

Here are the instructions:  https://schalltechnik04.de/en/instructions/pumpernickel
Kit here - price depends a lot on whether you buy a box or just the parts: https://schalltechnik04.de/en/kits
It isn't cheap, but then some of the components aren't cheap either.

Review here: http://www.ovnilab.com/reviews/pumper.shtml

[DIY Bass]

I have just made a Schalltechnik_04 Pumpernickel comp.  It is a THAT 4301 based comp and sounds great.  It is very transparent.  It will go from very light compression to infinity:1 limiting, and has a blend, so you can blend some of the clean signal back in to recover some playing dynamic if you want/need to.  Also has a gain reduction meter so you can see what is going on.  The schematic is not available (you can buy a kit with everything in it), but there are other 4301 based schematics around and the meter looks as if it is straight from a THAT design note.

sounds like it may be perfect. i don't mind buying a kit once in a while if its not highway robbery butt rape priced.
gotta link? or perhaps i should google?

is it the circuit shown on page 8 of the datasheet bychance?

http://www.thatcorp.com/datashts/THAT_4301_Datasheet.pdf

thanks for the suggestion, looks like it would be a fairly easy build on vero!

I think that it is probably not too different - it doesn't have a gain control in the compression circuit - there is a fixed resistance for that.  There is also hard/soft knee switch.  The volume control is after the mix and is a straight volume at the output.  There is an input buffer and output buffer as well (just op amps).  If you mixed up http://www.thatcorp.com/datashts/dn112.pdf with the "auto" section of http://www.thatcorp.com/datashts/dn115.pdf added a clean/wet mix and output volume (and the buffers) you wouldn't be far off the mark.  Oh, and a charge pump for +- voltage.

[samhay]

Here are the instructions:  https://schalltechnik04.de/en/instructions/pumpernickel
Kit here - price depends a lot on whether you buy a box or just the parts: https://schalltechnik04.de/en/kits
It isn't cheap, but then some of the components aren't cheap either.

Review here: http://www.ovnilab.com/reviews/pumper.shtml

I've seen that before and been tempted, but the lack of schematic is a major turn off.
Did you get a schematic with the kit?

[samhay]

If you try everything you've come up with so far and still fail, I can let you borrow the compressor I use with my bass.  It is a fairly complicated circuit based on a THAT 4316, but I have built it on vero and can give you the layout.  Schematic and details are at the following link, and it is very transparent and excellent with bass, in my opinion (it is always on in my setup): http://www.thatcorp.com/pedals/4316%20Battery-Powered%20One%20Knob%20Squeezer.pdf

I think a few of us would be interested in seeing this...
4316 is not available in DIP package right? Did you use an a adapter board?

[DIY Bass]

Here are the instructions:  https://schalltechnik04.de/en/instructions/pumpernickel
Kit here - price depends a lot on whether you buy a box or just the parts: https://schalltechnik04.de/en/kits
It isn't cheap, but then some of the components aren't cheap either.

Review here: http://www.ovnilab.com/reviews/pumper.shtml

I've seen that before and been tempted, but the lack of schematic is a major turn off.
Did you get a schematic with the kit?

No schematic at all.  The construction instructions are very easy to follow though, and when I made a slight soldering mistake (one cold joint), Julian took the time to help me track down where the mistake was.

[samhay]

^Hmm. I thought that might be the case.

Jimi - the ovnilab reviews are a good way to waste/spend an evening.
http://www.ovnilab.com/

I keep coming back to optical for bass compression. No problems with headroom and the slower response of the LDR is not a problem with the fat strings. This is what I use:
https://samdump.wordpress.com/welcome/projects/light-speed-compressor/

[EBK]

If you try everything you've come up with so far and still fail, I can let you borrow the compressor I use with my bass.  It is a fairly complicated circuit based on a THAT 4316, but I have built it on vero and can give you the layout.  Schematic and details are at the following link, and it is very transparent and excellent with bass, in my opinion (it is always on in my setup): http://www.thatcorp.com/pedals/4316%20Battery-Powered%20One%20Knob%20Squeezer.pdf

I think a few of us would be interested in seeing this...
4316 is not available in DIP package right? Did you use an a adapter board?

Yes, I used an adapter board from Schmartboard.

[samhay]

^thanks.

[blackieNYC]

Jimi-
There are a variety of pre-built bass traps out there. The home studio scene seems to have broadened that market over the years- maybe they are quite affordable.  Any chance you can talk the bar owner into that with a clever pitch?  I've got a barber shop owner paying me to find some acoustic panels for him.  If he can give a damn so can your guy.
I can't believe I'm recommending something other than a pedal. 

[Gus]

Maybe the bass player could use open back headphones with the full range going to them and the amp having a high pass filter or a more complicated filter circuit before it and maybe a limiting circuit.