An idle question about octaves and delays

[Mark Hammer]

I had an idea for something the other day.  I thought an octave with a bit of vibrato, introduced slightly after a note, might sound kind of neat.  I suppose this was prompted by listening to some "shimmer" delays/reverbs, whose repeats/reflections were an octave up.

I thought the quickest route to producing it and hearing how it sounds would be to adapt a chorus.  I have a Rick Holt "Bigger Angel", which is a PT2399-based chorus.  It theoretically allows one to stagger the wobbly octave a bit via pin 2.  It offers two points of intervention: one between the input buffer and PT2399, and a second between the PT2399 output and mixer stage.

So the question is whether it would be advisable to try and wedge in a frequency-doubling sub-circuit ahead of the delay, or better after the delay.

Pros and cons?

[garcho]

Are you talking Foxx fuzz octave or digital octave?

[11-90-an]

After the delay, i think...

A bit OT, but i had this idea of a fast ramp up oscillator modulating a pt2399 to get an octave sound through the pitch shift of the notes. I didn't test it yet, but there's probably a chance of it just sounding like anither ringmod....

Perhaps this might work for you...

[iainpunk]

before the delay but after the feedback sum, so you stack multiple octaves higher and higher, but i think you are better off using an FX loop, where you COULD add a digital octave, an analog one, or any other digital interval with a EHX pitchfork... especially the Detune is cool in an delay feedback loop, it gives an slow up or downward spiral that sounds like a Sheppard tone.

cheers, Iain

[garcho]

^ what's an analog octave? Again, are we talking about fOXX octave? High gain stuff will have totally different stages/layout strategies than dsp. Is there any analog octave up that isn't also high gain distortion?

Also, I believe Mark is referring to the PT2399 not for delay but for a faux-vibe a la chorus with warble.

[iainpunk]

^ what's an analog octave? Again, are we talking about fOXX octave? High gain stuff will have totally different stages/layout strategies than dsp. Is there any analog octave up that isn't also high gain distortion?

Also, I believe Mark is referring to the PT2399 not for delay but for a faux-vibe a la chorus with warble.

Dan Armstrong green ringer
EQD tentacle
and other diy implementations

[garcho]

Who would ever call the green ringer an octave up? Have you ever heard it? Green Ringer, there's a clue there 

Tentacle is based on a fuzz pedal, it is not clean, and has all the same caveats: have to play up on the neck, neck pup, tone down etc.

So where are the "other diy implementations"?

I think we've adequately derailed Mark's post now 

[iainpunk]

Who would ever call the green ringer an octave up? Have you ever heard it? Green Ringer, there's a clue there 

Tentacle is based on a fuzz pedal, it is not clean, and has all the same caveats: have to play up on the neck, neck pup, tone down etc.

So where are the "other diy implementations"?

I think we've adequately derailed Mark's post now 

the green ringer and tentacle is basically the same effect, sounding almost the same of compared side by side, and it it in fact an octave up, but it does intermodulate if multiple tones are played, but denying those pedals are octave up is just bad.
ring mod is way different from a green ringer also.

cheers, Iain

[Digital Larry]

I used to think the green ringer was a ring modulator too.  But it's a rectifier at heart which is what is in most of those octave fuzz things IMO.

[garcho]

I never thought the Green Ringer was a actual ring mod. It sounds a bit like one, hence the name green RINGer, obviously I am not alone in that opinion, Dan Armstrong seemed to think it sounds a bit like one, too.

We're really OT now

[Mark Hammer]

1) ALL phase-splitter-based octave-up units WILL produce sideband products under certain conditions; particularly doing double-stops.  Bending single notes does not produce sideband products.  It's the combination of notes that yields the "ringing".

2) The Tentacle IS a Green Ringer.

3) The Green Ringer can yield very decent octaving if one does two things: increase the gain of the driver stage before the phase-splitter, and stick a diode pair on the output to hold the amplitude constant and allow the octave to "bloom".

4) Yep, the intent is to make the octave "pitch wiggle" rather than introduce any repeats.  I could probably achieve the same result using some modulated all-pass stages, but two things recommend the approach I'm taking.  One is that the board is already etched, stuffed, and functional.  The other is that the minimum delay achievable with a PT2399 is long enough to avoid cancellations resulting from simple phase changes.

[garcho]

3) The Green Ringer can yield very decent octaving if one does two things: increase the gain of the driver stage before the phase-splitter, and stick a diode pair on the output to hold the amplitude constant and allow the octave to "bloom".

I didn't mean to imply that some kind of octave up effect is technically impossible. My point is that clean octave up, in the sense that what comes out sounds like what goes in but an octave higher, doesn't really exist in the analog DIY world. Sure, if you do everything right, tweak whatever in some specific way, and only play single notes one at a time with no cross over between notes (as in playing on a single string), never playing chords, never playing even double stops, never letting any open strings ring out at all, only playing above the 12th fret, tone knob all the way down, sure, it sounds like "pretty good" octave up. How often do you play guitar like that? I feel like this is a major distinction from digital octave up, which basically behaves in a intuitive way, without all the stipulations. A Green Ringer is not a substitute for a digital octave pedal. Is that such a controversial opinion? My point is that when DIY guitar pedal peeps say "octave pedal" they often mean of the fuzz variety, again is that controversial? A fuzz octave is something to think about in terms of before or after a PT2399 circuit, where as a digital octave up probably wouldn't make much difference before or after. Wasn't that the question?

The Tentacle IS a Green Ringer.

I didn't do my due diligence in looking at the schematic, which I would have recognized right away as a Green Ringer, something I've built a number of times. Here is what EQD said about it, which is why I said what I said earlier: "It is the very same octave from our beloved Hoof Reaper pedal", very much a fuzz pedal. Did they smash a Green Ringer and a fuzz together for that one? I guess. I just watched a few demos of the Tentacle, color me unimpressed. And if that's anyone's idea of "clean octave up", I don't know what to say.

Anyway, carry on gentlemen, sorry to derail the OP

[iainpunk]

I didn't do my due diligence in looking at the schematic, which I would have recognized right away as a Green Ringer, something I've built a number of times. Here is what EQD said about it, which is why I said what I said earlier: "It is the very same octave from our beloved Hoof Reaper pedal", very much a fuzz pedal. Did they smash a Green Ringer and a fuzz together for that one? I guess. I just watched a few demos of the Tentacle, color me unimpressed. And if that's anyone's idea of "clean octave up", I don't know what to say.

no its a separate foot switch, and can be activated separately, without fuzz being active.
its in front of the other two fuzzes in the same pedal.

cheers, Iain

[Mark Hammer]

No harm done, Gary.  I hope my own post didn't sound angry or indignant.  FWIW, I completely agree with respect to analog vs digital octaving.  Two entirely different beasts.

The Tentacle and the Green Ringer it clones, suffer from the same flaw, which is the non-inclusion of any sensitivity adjustment.  Keep in mind the original GR was an extruded aluminum box that plugged directly into your guitar.  So it only had an on-off toggle and no other adjustment.  Dan took a wild stab at how much gain the driver stage needed, and I suppose it worked for some folks and not for others.  When I make one - and I think I've made 5 or more - I include variable gain on the driver stage to be able to suit the input signal.  It's by no means a "clean" sound, but it is simple, compact, and since it is more or less a "fuzz", it will sustain in a manner that lets the octave emerge after the initial clean transient.....with some pitch wiggle.