Pedal sales business models

[Vivek]

We are like 5 months away from completing our project which was inspired by a great engineer / musician who had a band named after one of USA's larger cities, beginning with "B"

One of the stages we reached till now is an SMD board that has the Compressor, Distortion, Cab Sim and filter (all modules inside the red box) all tried and tested and sounds great !!

Chorus module is also tested and done, but we did not add that to the SMD board.


We decided to see if we can begin monetising this stage, so that we have some funds and encouragement to complete the rest

Since this is my first time to contemplate slightly bigger runs (I only made pedals in onesies and twosies so far), I request your input on the following possible intermediate business models for the SMD, (short of standard business model of us making the complete pedal and selling it)


A) We sell the SMD board, the DIYer adds pots, jacks, enclosure, power, knobs etc

and or

B1) We find "Authorised Assemblers" who buy minimum X units of the SMD at a time and get a discount, they make the final product, test it and resell it

B2) Or, we sell it but "Authorised Assemblers" assembles and ships it.

C) Other ideas please


Thank you !

[Bunkey]

Personally I would hang tight and wait until the full thing was finished, else you risk diluting interest in the project (both your own and other people's).

It comes across a little cold if you've the attitude of 'Well here's part of a bigger project that we've been working on and we think is going to make us money; we're going to shift X-number of units and treat this as purely business and then sometime later we might finish the project we started with'.

I think viable options would be either to sell a 'Full DIY Kit based on the Rockman X100' with pre-soldered SMD - or waiting until like you say: "standard business model of us making the complete pedal and selling it".

I like to see products that aren't just products but something that someone has put a lot of time and effort into creating and then shares with the world regardless of whether they think it's profitable or not. Maybe that's an ideallistic view of the world but it's the world I would rather live in and I'd have a lot more respect for that.


Still, the Rockman X100 is a cool concept - I'd never actually come across this thing before - I like that you're emulating it but always tread respectfully when it comes to copying people's former work - as above.

I hope this finds you well.

[iainpunk]

i would put out ''stackable'' modules. like one in/out/power module that is the front and back of the circuit, and then a compressor/drive unit, a chorus/vibrato unit, and a delay/reverb unit, that can be bought, build and used as individual pedals or have multiple units connect to create a larger pedal. it could be done simply with headers that fit into the next unit's headers.

the advantages are:
this gives you the option to build upon this format into the future.
this gives you the option to ''open up'' the format so that other DIY enthusiasts can build their own units to fit into the same larger connected unit, with less off-board wiring hassle! (like a non-scam version of the Devi Ever Console)
you could put out a breadboard module.
it gives customers the opportunity to not buy unwanted functionality.
it gives the customers you sell to right now the option to still get the full product when completed, by just buying the other units as well.
it allows for change in order of operations (for those weirdo's like me who put reverb before fuzz)

the down sides are:
you have to make sure that the units actually have constant dimensions across all of them.
if you have a ''format'' you have to stick with it, even if a circuit demands more than the format offers.
the pedal might become really wide if enough units are put in.
i think this might be a bit outside of the scope of your project, but it might give you ideas.

cheers, Iain

[Bunkey]

i would put out ''stackable'' modules. like one in/out/power module that is the front and back of the circuit, and then a compressor/drive unit, a chorus/vibrato unit, and a delay/reverb unit, that can be bought, build and used as individual pedals or have multiple units connect to create a larger pedal. it could be done simply with headers that fit into the next unit's headers.

Just reading the Wiki article; SR&D actually did this later with their 'Rockmodules', offering the separate features as rack mounted units to be stacked and combined.

[mozz]

SR&D also went after Nobles sound studio (also sold under a few other names) and shut that down.

[Bunkey]

SR&D also went after Nobles sound studio (also sold under a few other names) and shut that down.

This.

It is pretty sketchy ground. If it's done right and isn't a straight lift of the original then it could be a flattering gesture considering the amp went out of production some 30 years ago.
I would say there are better ways to approach this than talking about business models and referring to it as a Rockman Clone though..

Do the thing because you enjoy doing the thing.

[Vivek]

SR&D also went after Nobles sound studio (also sold under a few other names) and shut that down.

I understand that the patents have been invalid since some time.

I will edit past posts to make it a bit more obscure

We began as a technical "mind exercise" to fully understand the design, but then people started to ask us to produce stuff


We redesigned some parts due to high cost / non availability of some of the original components and we added new stuff like Chorus rate and depth

[iainpunk]

SR&D also went after Nobles sound studio (also sold under a few other names) and shut that down.

I understand that the patents have been invalid since some time.

I will edit past posts to make it a bit more obscure

We began as a technical "mind exercise" to fully understand the design, but then people started to ask us to produce stuff


We redesigned some parts due to high cost / non availability of some of the original components and we added new stuff like Chorus rate and depth

i recommend re-designing everything and just advertise ''is inspired by''
its also good practice to re-design circuits to get similar functionality in a different way.

cheers

[ElectricDruid]

i recommend re-designing everything and just advertise ''is inspired by''
its also good practice to re-design circuits to get similar functionality in a different way.

Why? The patents have run out. That means the technology protected by those patents is now available for everyone to use. The point of of patents is to give the inventor time to make a good return on their invention, not to lock stuff away for all time.
Clone it, and call it a clone if it is. Vivek, you're not at any risk of legal action unless you start using protected trademarks or copyrighted visuals, like saying that it was built by Rockman when that's not true or putting original protected graphics on the enclosure. The circuit itself can only be protected by a patent, and if that's ended, it's open season on Rockman clones!
While I appreciate Iain's reluctance to directly copy other people's work, we're talking about a 30 year old circuit. It's not copying the latest tech at this point in time.

The amazing thing is that people are still interested in *that* 1980's guitar sound all these years later. Kudos to Tom Scholz for that.

[Bunkey]

I agree with Iain's point on ethical grounds - especially for those of us who can't afford to patent our work.

I also agree that a full re-design isn't necessary in this case.

This is the line you've got to tread - Staying true to the original but being respectful about it. The age of the design makes it a little easier; I don't think there's harm in modernising the circuit as you have done and toting it as being 'inspired by the original that you respect & admire'. Part of that is viewing it as a labour of love instead of a business opportunity and that's the point I'm trying to drive here. If you do a good job of it the money will come either way.

Good luck, I look forward to seeing this thing when it's finished.

[iainpunk]

the idea i raised was more of an ''keeping the honor to yourself'' point...
i don't care about the legality in this case, the product isn't even being produced anymore.
i would never sell a full or partial clone of a circuit, or atleast modified beyond recognition, just to be able to brag that i design all circuits myself.

cheers

[R.G.]

Aaaaand we've come back around to the issues of cloning, selling, patents, intellectual property, legal fights, and making money selling pedals.

First: have you priced how much it will cost just to hire an attorney to tell someone hounding you over patent/IP/trademark/etc. right to go pound sand? it's expensive to do anything legal even if you are 100% absolutely right and free of any real legal challenge.

Second: patents are a government-issued license for you to sue someone else. The government will not enforce a patent. The owner of the patent has to do their own enforcing, generally by being legally aggressive. People who are being enforced upon will have to have enough money to defend themselves. How much justice can you afford?

Third: actually making business-significant money selling pedals is HARD. Worse yet, it requires that you spend a lot of time doing things not related to pedals at all: taxes, accounting, inventory control, parts stocking, warranty repairs and customer communications (lots of this!) advertising, paying utilities, paying taxes (that will come up over and over and over...) possibly even dealing with labor laws, zoning and deed restrictions for where you make your pedals; taxes; local, state, and federal regulations on what you can and can't do as an employer, sole proprietor, partnership, LLC, the list goes on. All of these things take time away from dealing with pedals, sales and sound. And it ignores another huge issue: liability. You'd be amazed what people can and have been sued for even with piddly little things like pedals.

This is a synopsis of a huge number of Q and A accumulated from the last 2-3 decades, watching new generations of music-techies find they can build pedals, and deciding to go into business. If you're up for the issues above, go for it. But do think long and hard before committing your life savings. Or just all of your available credit on your credit cards.

[Vivek]

First of all, I am always so amazed that questions here get answered by some people who I revere, have been reading their articles from time to time in last 15 or 20 years. But when I decided to spend more time on electronics since start of COVID, I actually get replies from these well known, knowledgeable people. I'm so grateful !!!

Regarding exactly what can be patented ?

Can the fact that a product use compression ratio 4:1 be patented ?

Can the fact that the Speaker emulation in a product has a resonance peak of 5dB at 500 Hz be patented ?

Can the fact that there is a 6db/Octoave filter in front of a compressor be patented ?

Can the fact that LEDS are used in hard clipping configuration be patented ?

Can the fact that a 1Vp input signal at 1Khz leads to 0.13 Watts output at LM386 be patented ?

Can the fact that there is a compressor before a gain stage be patented ?



And yes, I can already see the legal, accounting, logistics problems ahead. Our deliverable is not mass market, it is niche market. It is impossible to compete with mass market producers. Maybe a low key, low quantity, hand made, artisanal product model is better suited for such products.

Is innovation / re-innovation being squeezed due to high cost of sitting at the table ?

[R.G.]

Regarding exactly what can be patented ?

Theoretically, anything that is a new process, material, method or mechanism that is useful that has not already been patented or is not already in use in the public domain, and is not "obvious to one skilled in the art".

As a practical matter, whatever you can eventually convince a patent examiner/clerk to stamp "approved", which can be pretty silly at times.

Patents are in general useless to people or small organizations without big legal departments and budgets. A patent is just a license to sue others. If you defend a patent, you have to pay all the legal costs to run the lawsuit, and you may or may not win, and if you win you may or may not get damage money to pay you back for your work. And the process is so slow that you may die before getting relief. Google "interval windshield wiper lawsuit".

Can the fact that a product use compression ratio 4:1 be patented ?

Unlikely, although patent examiners are not always good, or thorough. Since there are compressors with any ratio at all that are already in the public domain, there are ones which already do 4:1, and so a good defense to your lawsuit would be that it's already public domain and obvious to one skilled in the art.

Can the fact that the Speaker emulation in a product has a resonance peak of 5dB at 500 Hz be patented ?

As a practical matter, no. See above.

Can the fact that there is a 6db/Octoave filter in front of a compressor be patented ?

As a practical matter, no. See above.

Can the fact that LEDS are used in hard clipping configuration be patented ?

As a practical matter, no. See above.

Can the fact that a 1Vp input signal at 1Khz leads to 0.13 Watts output at LM386 be patented ?

As a practical matter, no. See above.

Can the fact that there is a compressor before a gain stage be patented ?

As a practical matter, no. See above.

You could argue that a specific combination of the various bit and pieces are patentable, but you'd have an even worse time defending the patent then. And any organization with more money than you could simply violate your patent and dare you to spend the time and money to stop them. Again, see the interval windshield wiper suit.

Is innovation / re-innovation being squeezed due to high cost of sitting at the table ?

Yes.

[Mark Hammer]

In an era of globalization, the "protective" power of a patent against a manufacturer that exploits one's ideas/processes without authorization depends on the country where the originator and exploiter reside, irrespective of corporate size.  That can be true of trademarks as well.  Just consider how effectively Gibson has been able to stop the production and sale of "Chibsons".

BTW, hi RG.  Hope all is well.  The wife and I got our first Pfizer last Friday.

[R.G.]

Hiya, Mark. We're good. Got our second Modernas in early March. Stay safe - both the mRNA vaccines seem to hit about 80% at two weeks post vaccination. So hide in the bunker for another couple of weeks.

[Govmnt_Lacky]

Patents are in general useless to people or small organizations without big legal departments and budgets. A patent is just a license to sue others. If you defend a patent, you have to pay all the legal costs to run the lawsuit, and you may or may not win, and if you win you may or may not get damage money to pay you back for your work. And the process is so slow that you may die before getting relief. Google "interval windshield wiper lawsuit".

Saw a GREAT movie based on the story of the inventor of this. Believe it is called "Flash of Genius."

[Mark Hammer]

Hiya, Mark. We're good. Got our second Modernas in early March. Stay safe - both the mRNA vaccines seem to hit about 80% at two weeks post vaccination. So hide in the bunker for another couple of weeks.

Good to hear.  Our 2nd shot isn't scheduled until mid-August, though if supply ramps up, I would imagine the date to advance. 

[Phend]

Got my second moderna today, my ears are ringing.
Vivek, good luck on your pedal venture.  Write up a business vision statement. There is lots of free help on starting a business.
I know,  I have and started my own,  not pedals though.
Don't expect to get rich selling them.
Keep your first job or have plan X.
Making pedals as a side business should be fun.
Congrats,  have guts and go for it.

[Ripthorn]

While things like compression ratio, etc. shouldn't necessarily be patentable, there are many cases where things like that are. At work there are some patterns like that that we have to work around. You really need to read the individual claims of the patent application to see what is covered. If a claim specifies the 4:1 ratio, then it's covered.