Moog type of synth

[Elijah]

Hello guys. I know this place is amazing and awesome for pedal builders and diyers like me but I wanted to build a synth module to get moog type of sound out of guitar or keys recently. Does anyone know the source where I could get schematics or layouts for that? Or can somebody here help to manage that? Thank you guys for all the advices in advance.

[garcho]

synth module to get moog type of sound out of guitar or keys recently

"Moog sound"? Explain in more detail what you want.

[Elijah]

"Moog sound"? Explain in more detail what you want.

https://youtu.be/grItRCJ5wUM I mean like this.

[garcho]

Is there a guitar synth pedal that makes similar sounds that you want? Making your guitar sound "like a Moog" is not really going to happen.There's this:

http://musicfromouterspace.com/analogsynth_new/GUITARSYNTHAUG2007/GUITARSYNTHAUG2007.html

[andy-h-h]

Get a Korg MS-20 and route your guitar through it?   Or buy an 80s Roland Guitar Synth.

Sorry, I know, maybe not that helpful...   

I did recently build some Korg MS-20 filters and they were monsters on guitar, possibly too much if there is such a thing. 

[ElectricDruid]

The Moog "transistor ladder" filter is probably the Moog's most distinctive feature. There are lots of different schematics for transistor ladder filters flying around, since Moog kept tweaking the design. Since they're synth filters, they're all set up for bipolar supplies, usually +/-15V, so you either have to do a significant redesign or find a bipolar power supply.
The other key element of the "Moog Sound" is that Moog aren't afraid of a bit of distortion, unlike some other synth manufacturers. Roland's stuff tends to be much cleaner sounding, for example, whereas Moog let you overdrive the filter input if you turn up all the oscillators, and then the filter output can be loud enough with resonance to overdrive the VCA...so the sound can get quite dirty.

If you feed the guitar through some heavy fuzz for a nice synthy base sound, and then through a Moog filter with either an envelope follower or a triggered envelope or LFO, you'll be into territory which is identifiably "Moog synthy". Then all you have to do is play a repetitive pattern of sixteenth notes so you sound like an analog sequencer and you're there!!

It's not a simple project though. There's quite a lot of circuitry involved in all that.

[snk]

a synth module to get moog type of sound out of guitar

It's not that easy, as a Moog itself is not one module, but several modules gathered into a single synth (this is how the 1969 MiniMoog started, and the SubSequent is even bigger than a MiniMoog, feature-wise). So you have to keep that in mind.
For instance, even the EHX Micro-synth (which is slightly more advanced than an Electra Distorsion ) is a very, very crude approximation of a synth sound (the filter is ok, but the osscillator sound is not a full featured VCO).
And converting a guitar signal into a "synth signal" could be quite tricky.

About this goal (using a guitar to play a synth), if you're open to ready-made suggestions, you may look at the MS20 (with the ESP section, which does exactly that), or a vintage Korg 911 (it's a limited synth, but it's designed to be controlled using a guitar). But it's Korg, not Moog : so, it depends if you're really after the "Moog sound" or after a "synth sound".

or keys

If you want to make a DIY synth to be played using keys (or using a sequencer, etc), it would be slightly easier (but still quite some work) : you could go the DIY Eurorack route, building a case, a power supply, and some DIY Moog modules.
There are plenty of DIY projects for Eurorack, you have the choice. You will need power supply, a couple VCOs, a ladder Low Pass filter, some LFOs, enveloppes (at least for filter and amp), some mixers modules...
The Moog filter is very typical, as Electric Druid wrote above, and you can check Yves Usson (Yusynth) version.
VCO can be more complex to build : if you want "the Moog sound", you'll proper VCO. If you want a more "plain" analog sound, go the CEM 3340 route, it will be easier.
LFO is quite easy.
To get the classic Moog sound, it's also advised to get a clipper module, which is an easy build.

My suggestion would be :
- Get a modern version of the Korg MS20, so you get the ESP and a very nice synth to learn analog synthesis. It works out of the box, allows you to dive into synth sound design and can be used either with your guitar or the keyboard.
- Then, as this synth is semi-modular with a nice patchbay, you can start building DIY Eurorack modules (Moog VCF, some VCOs, LFOs, etc), and use the MS20 to control the Eurorack (or vice-versa).


Oh, and if you're not "stuck" to the DIY & analog ethos, you may want to give Empress Zoia a look, as it is a modular effect and full featured (digital) synth packed into a pedal form... So I think you could use your guitar to get synth sounds, try various modules, see what you like and get lost into sonic creation

[Mark Hammer]

I built a diode ladder envelope-controlled filter (autowah) from a Japanese project book/series called "Lets Play Myself".  Unfortunately, I etched the board backwards so it isn't working.  But the design seems pretty much like what the OP is looking for.

Keep in mind that what will make something sound more synth-like in general is some control over amplitude envelope.  In Eurorack terms, that would entail a) a trigger/gate generator to sense the guitar signal, b) one or more envelope/transient generators to shape the rise and fall of the signal and "movement" of the filter, c) a VCA to be controlled by the envelope generator, and lastly d) the filter itself.  There is a surfeit of circuits from PAiA that could serve this function.  More sophisticated ones can be found on the late Ray Wilson's Music from Outer Space site.

A simpler arrangement would be something like the E&MM String Damper, either preceded by, or followed by, the Lets Play Myself filter.  If the filter comes first, then its sweep is driven by the guitar signal directly.  If it comes second, then the String Damper's envelope directs the sweep.

[StephenGiles]

To get anywhere near the Moog sound, you will need to drive a Moog VCO + Moog diode ladder envelope-controlled filter. So having built those, your huge problem will be to find a circuit for an interface between guitar and Moog synth which will force its VCO to produce exactly the same note played on the guitar - not easy, together with a nice ripple free envelope generator. There may well be less to sutch an interface than I imagine of course.

[Mark Hammer]

Here's the LPM circuit.  There is a PCB layout, but it's too big for any of the conventional enclosures.

[iainpunk]

your huge problem will be to find a circuit for an interface between guitar and Moog synth which will force its VCO to produce exactly the same note played on the guitar - not easy,

did you mean a PLL?
its self abuse if you want to work with a PLL, epsecially in a commercial design where you have to ensure consistency.

cheers

[StephenGiles]

your huge problem will be to find a circuit for an interface between guitar and Moog synth which will force its VCO to produce exactly the same note played on the guitar - not easy,

did you mean a PLL?
its self abuse if you want to work with a PLL, epsecially in a commercial design where you have to ensure consistency.

cheers

Definitely not, for the analog route ( I don't do anything else!!) nothing but full blown input conditioning circuitry on the lines of the EH Rack Guitar Synth would do the job, otherwise you get "hipperty hopperty full jumping pitches", and assuming that Moog VCOs need 1 volt per octave (I have no idea), such circuitry must deliver the same.

[ElectricDruid]

VCO can be more complex to build : if you want "the Moog sound", you'll proper VCO. If you want a more "plain" analog sound, go the CEM 3340 route, it will be easier.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, but it's worth pointing out that the MemoryMoog used CEM3340 oscillators, and no-one has ever knocked that for "not sounding like a Moog". They've knocked it for a lot of other stuff, like mostly not working, being expensive to keep working, and for being the most unreliable P-O-S they've ever had the misfortune to spend money on, but everyone is agreed that when it's running, it sounds great!
I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that I don't think the oscillators are that big a deal.

My suggestion would be :
- Get a modern version of the Korg MS20, so you get the ESP and a very nice synth to learn analog synthesis. It works out of the box, allows you to dive into synth sound design and can be used either with your guitar or the keyboard.
- Then, as this synth is semi-modular with a nice patchbay, you can start building DIY Eurorack modules (Moog VCF, some VCOs, LFOs, etc), and use the MS20 to control the Eurorack (or vice-versa).

Good idea. Alternatively, get a Behringer Model D. It has a ton of CV and audio inputs so you can feed your guitar through the filter and when/if you get into other Eurorack stuff, you can feed loads of other things into it to expand the possibilities. I have one and it does sound authentically Moogy (It should - it's basically an SMD clone of the Minimoog circuit). It doesn't *feel* like a Moog, because it's tiny, whereas Moog's gear is mostly *massive* and also *massively overbuilt* and also (as a result) *massively expensive*. But it works and while it might not be giggably tough, it's a little desktop module and it's fine for that. Genuine Moog looks and feels like luxury because *it is*!!. If I win the lottery, I'll probably buy a Moog One, but otherwise? Forget it! Not in my range at all!

Jeez, the damn Behringer Model D is so cheap, there are *pedals* that cost more than that! And some of them are just boutique tube screamers!!

[iainpunk]

your huge problem will be to find a circuit for an interface between guitar and Moog synth which will force its VCO to produce exactly the same note played on the guitar - not easy,

did you mean a PLL?
its self abuse if you want to work with a PLL, epsecially in a commercial design where you have to ensure consistency.

cheers

Definitely not, for the analog route ( I don't do anything else!!) nothing but full blown input conditioning circuitry on the lines of the EH Rack Guitar Synth would do the job, otherwise you get "hipperty hopperty full jumping pitches", and assuming that Moog VCOs need 1 volt per octave (I have no idea), such circuitry must deliver the same.

the PLL was invented in the 20's or 30's, they are analog.
so you suggest a system that filters/cleans/conditions the input signal, then extracts the frequency and generates a control voltage, and have a VCO to play that frequency, right?
how about we add an analog frequency difference comparator to create feedback to the CV generation?

cheers

[StephenGiles]

your huge problem will be to find a circuit for an interface between guitar and Moog synth which will force its VCO to produce exactly the same note played on the guitar - not easy,

did you mean a PLL?
its self abuse if you want to work with a PLL, epsecially in a commercial design where you have to ensure consistency.

cheers

Definitely not, for the analog route ( I don't do anything else!!) nothing but full blown input conditioning circuitry on the lines of the EH Rack Guitar Synth would do the job, otherwise you get "hipperty hopperty full jumping pitches", and assuming that Moog VCOs need 1 volt per octave (I have no idea), such circuitry must deliver the same.

the PLL was invented in the 20's or 30's, they are analog.
so you suggest a system that filters/cleans/conditions the input signal, then extracts the frequency and generates a control voltage, and have a VCO to play that frequency, right?
how about we add an analog frequency difference comparator to create feedback to the CV generation?

cheers

Possibly!

[Mark Hammer]

Jeez, the damn Behringer Model D is so cheap, there are *pedals* that cost more than that! And some of them are just boutique tube screamers!!

Yup, one for sale on our local Craigslist equivalent for $350CAD.  That's a pedal price.
I've plugged my guitar into the external audio input of my Sequential Circuits Pro-One, which uses a CEM3320 for a 4-pole lowpass filter.  4-pole sounds wonderful, no matter how you do it.  Hmmm, don't some of the Source Audio pedals do 4-pole?

[garcho]

I've had a 3320 Alfa clone guitar-oriented VCF on the breadboard for months trying to figure out how to get it down to enclosure size, what with all the bells and all the whistles. Sounds fantastic though!

[StephenGiles]

I've had a 3320 Alfa clone guitar-oriented VCF on the breadboard for months trying to figure out how to get it down to enclosure size, what with all the bells and all the whistles. Sounds fantastic though!

Down to rack size presumably?

[Elijah]

VCO can be more complex to build : if you want "the Moog sound", you'll proper VCO. If you want a more "plain" analog sound, go the CEM 3340 route, it will be easier.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, but it's worth pointing out that the MemoryMoog used CEM3340 oscillators, and no-one has ever knocked that for "not sounding like a Moog". They've knocked it for a lot of other stuff, like mostly not working, being expensive to keep working, and for being the most unreliable P-O-S they've ever had the misfortune to spend money on, but everyone is agreed that when it's running, it sounds great!
I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that I don't think the oscillators are that big a deal.

My suggestion would be :
- Get a modern version of the Korg MS20, so you get the ESP and a very nice synth to learn analog synthesis. It works out of the box, allows you to dive into synth sound design and can be used either with your guitar or the keyboard.
- Then, as this synth is semi-modular with a nice patchbay, you can start building DIY Eurorack modules (Moog VCF, some VCOs, LFOs, etc), and use the MS20 to control the Eurorack (or vice-versa).

Good idea. Alternatively, get a Behringer Model D. It has a ton of CV and audio inputs so you can feed your guitar through the filter and when/if you get into other Eurorack stuff, you can feed loads of other things into it to expand the possibilities. I have one and it does sound authentically Moogy (It should - it's basically an SMD clone of the Minimoog circuit). It doesn't *feel* like a Moog, because it's tiny, whereas Moog's gear is mostly *massive* and also *massively overbuilt* and also (as a result) *massively expensive*. But it works and while it might not be giggably tough, it's a little desktop module and it's fine for that. Genuine Moog looks and feels like luxury because *it is*!!. If I win the lottery, I'll probably buy a Moog One, but otherwise? Forget it! Not in my range at all!

Jeez, the damn Behringer Model D is so cheap, there are *pedals* that cost more than that! And some of them are just boutique tube screamers!!

Behringer price range sounds good to me. And yes guys, you are the coolest. Thanks to everyone helping out here. This is a huge impact to my understanding of in which direction to go with this idea.

[StephenGiles]

Didn't Bob Moog build a guitar to synth interface?