Choosing the "best" caps for a fuzz

[OiMcCoy]

Hey everyone.

I am working on a one-knob fuzz based on the classic Colorsound. Breaking new ground, I know. I know with small part count pedals, small things can make a pretty noticeable difference. My question is it worth it to buy expensive caps for the input and output? Right now I am using mylar green caps. I am using high values, 470n and 220n, so it is hard to find similar-sized caps in other styles without spending some coin. But is it worth it? Will there really be that big of a difference between mylar, tropical fish, ceramic, oil cans? I am enjoying the way it sounds right now, but if I could find a way of getting a bit more definition or grit I would be very happy.

As always, thanks for the help!

[Big Monk]

Hey everyone.

I am working on a one-knob fuzz based on the classic Colorsound. Breaking new ground, I know. I know with small part count pedals, small things can make a pretty noticeable difference. My question is it worth it to buy expensive caps for the input and output? Right now I am using mylar green caps. I am using high values, 470n and 220n, so it is hard to find similar-sized caps in other styles without spending some coin. But is it worth it? Will there really be that big of a difference between mylar, tropical fish, ceramic, oil cans? I am enjoying the way it sounds right now, but if I could find a way of getting a bit more definition or grit I would be very happy.

As always, thanks for the help!

The short and long answers for circuits like these is a resounding No.

[Fancy Lime]

Worth it? Not for the sound, no. But for low part count classic circuits,  it can be fun to use visually appealing parts like tropical fishes or metal can transistors. That being said, I use greenies or inexpensive box caps for almost anything that needs a film cap.

Andy

[OiMcCoy]

Awesome, thanks for confirming what I believed. But this place collectively has a substantially better understanding of all things pedals than I.

As far as esthetics, I think it would pretty cool to have something funky looking. I put a fair amount of time into making the board look nice. But green looks nice enough for me.

[iainpunk]

as long as you don't use ceramic disc caps your good - sound wise, they are microphonic, non-linear and fragile
i believe good looking components make stuff sound better through confirmation bias.
but there is no observable difference in sound between tropical fish, green foil or box caps, even the ultra mojo PAPER IN OIL caps are not different in electrical properties.

cheers

[duck_arse]

if people could see the ugly dull brown cap-body that lurks beneath the colourful stripes of a tropical fish cap, they'd never want to use them.

[Bunkey]

The smaller the circuit, the larger the portion each individual component contributes to the overall picture.
At the same time; the less components present, the less overall distortion is imparted on the output signal (no device is perfect).

I have a lot of new Vishay axial PPE caps. I also have a lot of old tropical fish. I paid a lot more for the Vishays.
Can I hear a difference in person? Absolutely
Can I hear a difference recorded through a dynamic mic and digitally sampled at 44.1kHz (...or 96kHz for that matter)? Nope!

The same can be said for different clipping diodes, for example; and I'm sure anyone who's got seriously into diodes will concur there exist a plethora of tonal possibilities there.

I use the Vishays for stage coupling, I use the fish in tone stacks.
It's like necking on with a 6 in broad daylight vs in a dark club.
Sometimes it's better when you blur the edges.

I also have a lot of other electrolytics, PIO's, tantalums etc.

From my own experience and having digested the entire spectrum of opinion online, I'm pretty happy to say that some people are just more attentive to the sound they hear than others. No difference in hearing per se but maybe like when you're feeling socially awkward and just not being able to process the information around you vs being in a comfortable space and feeling you're the embodiment of the frigging universe. Sometimes the difference is day and night. Sometimes everything is a little foggy and you can't tell. Sometimes you're just off the pace. Some people's talents lie elsewhere. There are a lot of influential articles and papers on audio design that I respect and admire, written by people who understand a great deal about electronics but seem to have the musical perception of a spoon.

F- knows I'm rambling.

There are differences, don't sweat it. Go explore. Live in colour.

Thank f- this isnt DIYAudio.


Forums are full of noise, even me, use your own judgement and embrace your own perception.
If you're in the UK I can send you some fish to try, if you like. See what you make of them.

Ben

[ElectricDruid]

I think Greenies are a pretty good choice. I don't know if they go quite as far back as the colorsound fuzz, but I know I was pulling them out of 1970's electronics back when I couldn't afford to buy caps. I've always considered them a "vintage" cap. Ultimately, they're a basic polyester film cap and won't give you a different sound from any other polyester film cap, but they do look the part. And with so few parts in these old circuits, that really counts for something.

Whatever you choose, make it beautiful and make it look like you cared about it, because you did!!

<edit>typo

[Big Monk]

I think tolerance is the most important factor in capacitors. I want to know that if I order 100 0.022 uf film caps, that I can pull at random and get the value I need. I like 10% tolerance when I can get them in bulk.

Frankly, I think much of the difference people "hear" is in the value used. For instance, I ordered about 20 0.22 uf Tropical Fish to sort for a Clyde Wah project. Tolerance was 20% based on the markings and old literature.

Not one of them was within spitting distance of 0.22 uf. So imagine you are someone with only a passing interest in building and you order the exact number you need for a project, install them, and hear not the difference in cap type/provenance but rather the higher or lower value than what's marked.

I personally like the Panasonic film caps.

[iainpunk]

Frankly, I think much of the difference people "hear" is in the value used. For instance, I ordered about 20 0.22 uf Tropical Fish to sort for a Clyde Wah project. Tolerance was 20% based on the markings and old literature.

Not one of them was within spitting distance of 0.22 uf.

odd, the tropical fish in my collection all test between -7 and +6 percent, which is about right for 10% tolerance. i wonder what actually changes the capacitance over time.

cheers

[Gus]

Sometimes with a fuzz you want the crappy caps.

Ceramics can be bad to the best (COG NP0)

In fuzzes and in some other other devices I sometime use a class 2 or worse microphonic ceramic disk(s)

Remember caps can have dielectric stress with higher voltage differences between plates effects are often 9VDC

Sometime you want a microphonic tone cap in a guitar however it might only be noticeable at stage volume not house volume.

Experiment and find out for yourself.

[mozz]

Was making fuzz faces with a 1uf 250v input film Panasonic cap. I thought it sounded a bit hi-fi, clearer, took out some of the bottom end woof. First one i sent across the country, guy says, it sounds a little bit "hi-fi", which surprised me a bit until i remembered the big ass 1uf cap i used. Some people can hear things, others can't. Now as to carbon comp/metal film/carbon film, resistors,i would have to spend some hours doing swaps.

I need to get some Phifer (spelling?) resistors and UK made caps and real UK germaniums. Anybody want to swap for genuine US 60's parts or tubes?

[Bunkey]

Frankly, I think much of the difference people “hear” is in the value used. For instance, I ordered about 20 0.22 uf Tropical Fish to sort for a Clyde Wah project. Tolerance was 20% based on the markings and old literature.

Not one of them was within spitting distance of 0.22 uf.

Careful, this is decending into the aforementioned DIYAudio territory. 


I test every component I put in a circuit - as far as the BMP stack goes, a 10% range can make a huge difference to fc and the crossover at the low end.

Have to agree with Iain, the majority of my 20% black band 10nf C280's measure consistently in the mid 9's; the larger value 10% white bands are typically <5%.
220nf's I have are mostly around 215nf - Genuine 60's Mullards with the slimmer bodies, crumbly split ends and flaking lacquer to boot!

ESR is about 1.5-2ohm on the fish, where the Vishay axials are around 6ohm or so.
Some of the Cornell Dubilier axials I have (same yellow package) are up around 30ohm 

There are some big differences there; both sonic and measured.


Similarly, every Pana FC I put in the power supply filtering/decoupling ends up sounding very industrial and pushed in the mids, so I tend to go with Nichicon KZ's which are much more relaxed but take a while to break in. Even the KZ and Fine Gold's are distinctly different, with the FG's having more of that mid, like the Pana, but still being musical about it.
All ESR's are around 200mOhm - 1ohm for these caps. I don't have the equipment to measure any other aspect but the differences are distinct and consistent enough to trust my ears implicitly. I really wanted to like the Pana FC's as well.

I know I can't speak for everybody here but I'd like to think the people who weigh in on this forum do so because they have real practical experience with such things. I'm only putting my neck on the line here claiming there's a difference because there actually is a difference.

[andy-h-h]

Whatever you choose, make it beautiful and make it look like you cared about it, because you did!!

<edit>typo

This is the best advice I've read in a long time. 

[Big Monk]

Frankly, I think much of the difference people "hear" is in the value used. For instance, I ordered about 20 0.22 uf Tropical Fish to sort for a Clyde Wah project. Tolerance was 20% based on the markings and old literature.

Not one of them was within spitting distance of 0.22 uf.

Careful, this is decending into the aforementioned DIYAudio territory. 


I test every component I put in a circuit - as far as the BMP stack goes, a 10% range can make a huge difference to fc and the crossover at the low end.

Have to agree with Iain, the majority of my 20% black band 10nf C280's measure consistently in the mid 9's; the larger value 10% white bands are typically <5%.
220nf's I have are mostly around 215nf - Genuine 60's Mullards with the slimmer bodies, crumbly split ends and flaking lacquer to boot!

ESR is about 1.5-2ohm on the fish, where the Vishay axials are around 6ohm or so.
Some of the Cornell Dubilier axials I have (same yellow package) are up around 30ohm 

There are some big differences there; both sonic and measured.


Similarly, every Pana FC I put in the power supply filtering/decoupling ends up sounding very industrial and pushed in the mids, so I tend to go with Nichicon KZ's which are much more relaxed but take a while to break in. Even the KZ and Fine Gold's are distinctly different, with the FG's having more of that mid, like the Pana, but still being musical about it.
All ESR's are around 200mOhm - 1ohm for these caps. I don't have the equipment to measure any other aspect but the differences are distinct and consistent enough to trust my ears implicitly. I really wanted to like the Pana FC's as well.

I know I can't speak for everybody here but I'd like to think the people who weigh in on this forum do so because they have real practical experience with such things. I'm only putting my neck on the line here claiming there's a difference because there actually is a difference.

My fault. I came off as short and a little too definitive in my statement there.

I guess my main point is that it takes a lot of listening and building and note taking before things like this can register for new builders. I have a number of different cap types in my stash and frankly, I may have got a dud batch of Fishies.

By all means, try different stuff. Breadboard things and listen intently. Use what sounds best.

[FiveseveN]

Yes, listen hard enough and you can convince yourself of all sorts of things And if others can't hear it, they must not be attentive enough.
The pursuit of truth starts by becoming aware of your perceptual and epistemic limitations. This is why science is done with instruments and methodologies and not by popular vote or really sincere and deep meditation.
On the other hand, aesthetic reasons are perfectly valid when deciding how to make a thing. Maybe a cap's brand/series/vintage/color/shape somehow evokes warm feeling of childhood bliss. If you put a picture of your ex wife on a pedal it can't possibly change how it sounds but it might change your perception of that sound. Ultimately you decide how the thing should behave, which includes how it sounds, looks, feels etc., isn't that one of the perks of DIY?
"Controversy" only arises when people try to justify their aesthetics with some determinable, physical parameters. But mojo is not a property of components, it's the sum of associations we make with them.

And more to the point:

Will there really be that big of a difference between mylar, tropical fish, ceramic, oil cans?

No.

if I could find a way of getting a bit more definition or grit I would be very happy.

Are "definition" and "grit" describing things going on in the treble range? If so, you must look elsewhere since coupling caps form high-pass filters, i.e. they only affect the low end. Give us a schematic and an actionable goal so we could point you in the right direction.

[Electric Warrior]

I think Greenies are a pretty good choice. I don't know if they go quite as far back as the colorsound fuzz, but I know I was pulling them out of 1970's electronics back when I couldn't afford to buy caps.

The Jennings Fuzz on which the Colorsound Fuzz Box is based used greenies and a styroflex cap (for the 220pf). The Colorsound version has been around since the 90ies and uses Vishay MKT 368, which are the modern equivalent of "tropical fish caps", instead of the greenies. Unlike the greenies, they are metallized, but there is also a non-metallized, mustard coloured version (KT 347).

[bluebunny]

I'm late to this thread, but I'll repeat anyway...  This is rock'n'roll and that's a fuzz pedal, not an MRI scanner.  If you have something beautiful to hand, use it.  If it sounds good, it is good.  If it looks good too: bonus!   

[Chillums]

I have an absolute crapload of vintage caps.  I'm pretty sure I even have the exact ones that are in your 3D PCB pic you posted earlier.  If your in the US shoot me a PM and I'll send ya a bunch to try out if you like.  Let YOUR ears be the judge!!

[Phend]

Any comment on multi layer ceramic , these are 104 (0.1uF)