Big muff first series resistor+capacitor order swap?

[darron]

At the beginning of a big muff circuit, there's a resistor (39K or so) running in series into the input capacitor (0.1uf or so).

I've often wondered about the effect of swapping the order of these around. In my experience, and from what I've seen elsewhere, I find it's better to have resistors AFTER capacitors when you need them both in series. If resistor is first then it seems to add to the total harmonic distortion. As an extreme, say if there was 10M resistor into 1uf cap: If the resistor is first then it'll be extra noisy, but if it's second then it won't be so noisy (but will of course load the volume down to crap if there's very much load after).

So is there any harm in reversing the order? Will it change the tone due to some loading relationship in the particular order they made it? Otherwise I almost take it like a mistake unless somebody can explain it to me.

I'll do a test by ear, but was just wondering if anybody has tome technical knowledge or experience with this question?

[antonis]

As an extreme, say if there was 10M resistor into 1uf cap: If the resistor is first then it'll be extra noisy, but if it's second then it won't be so noisy (but will of course load the volume down to crap if there's very much load after).

Sorry but it makes no sense to me..

[FiveseveN]

it seems to add to the total harmonic distortion

Distortion, in a fuzz box?! 
How have you gained this experience if you've not done the ear test yet? I ask because like antonis said, what you're describing doesn't make sense. But I suppose there may be some circumstance where it does, you just can't generalize to all circuits and not to the Big Muff input in particular.

[duck_arse]

the order of components in a series circuit makes no difference. you have two legs, one in and one out. electrons don't know. it is a black box, and you don't know or care the order. only for a series circuit, but.

theory says the above, but I've learnt not to argue with people that have done the experiment, whatever it is, and have an opinion - even in the face of theory.

[R.G.]

D.A. is correct. For any purely series chain of components, as long as you don't tap off any of the middle connections, there is no difference in the current through the chain or the voltages at the ends. Order does not matter, and can't matter.

Humans simply will decide there are differences in everything, and insist that they can tell, though. So the order of the >humans< doing the testing does matter. 

[darron]

it seems to add to the total harmonic distortion

Distortion, in a fuzz box?! 
How have you gained this experience if you've not done the ear test yet? I ask because like antonis said, what you're describing doesn't make sense. But I suppose there may be some circumstance where it does, you just can't generalize to all circuits and not to the Big Muff input in particular.

well it's something I've noticed so far elsewhere so far. normally you wouldn't hear it. but in extremes it's there. so I thought somebody with *actual* learned theory might know more lol.

for example, in one of my tremolo designs I have an LDR going into a capacitor. the LDR goes say <1K to >60m. so it is extreme instance. I find it is slightly noiser if the LDR goes before the cap. not by tonnes but I thought there might be a rule about these things which I didn't know about and would like to learn why. in that instance you might point out it could have been an issue with DC on the path, but it had nowhere to travel and I had also tried decoupling both sides.



so I guess generally people are thinking it doesn't matter either way? so at the very least, if I swap them around then no harm done at all?


maybe I'm wrong. I thought there might be a reason that a signal won't pass through a cap as well if it's heavily loaded down prior.

[darron]

D.A. is correct. For any purely series chain of components, as long as you don't tap off any of the middle connections, there is no difference in the current through the chain or the voltages at the ends. Order does not matter, and can't matter.

Humans simply will decide there are differences in everything, and insist that they can tell, though. So the order of the >humans< doing the testing does matter. 

Thank you R.G. !

This helps me a lot. Maybe a silly small question, but with your credentials I won't need to worry about it again! haha

Cheers!

[darron]

okay. here's putting it another way

in the schematic above, what is the reason for R12 being after C13, but then R2 is before C1. What is the reasoning for reversing the order in different parts?

[antonis]

what is the reason for R12 being after C13, but then R2 is before C1.

Absolutely none..!!

It might was convenient to circuit designer in relation with PCB implementation..

[anotherjim]

On a single-sided PCB, the series component order can help with the layout and the running of the copper traces. Sometimes a wire link is needed to jumper across traces, but what if you can use a component instead? A resistor can be laid to jump over the width of a few traces. Capacitors, especially radial lead ones, not so many.

[POTL]

I tried swapping components when I was learning to understand circuits (theory for weaklings, I thought then) and concluded that it didn't matter. Put it in the order in which it will be more convenient to make the board and it will look more beautiful.

[287m]

I never tired doing muff and derivated circuit layout, yet. Even with just add more component, i can try make layout with my rules.
Bring on the schemo, and perf magic happen, sometimes with a small crime, jumper! Maybe, i having more fun than a person should be legally allowed.
Doh, I miss perf porn artist like FCUK, Doug, ....

Agree with POTL, look more beautiful always bring pleasure and priceless eureka moment.






PS, its hard doing beautiful cordwood layout, Duck!