What makes something sound like "a Marshall in a box"?

[Mark Hammer]

I see this description of many pedals.  Not owning a Marshall, or having played through any in recent memory (maybe ever), I'm in no position to pooh-pooh the description as chicanery and deceptive, or declare it accurate.  I'm asking the question sincerely.  What is it about the sound of a pedal that makes someone describe it as sounding like a Marshall amp?  The accompanying question is whether there is any particular approach to clipping that tends to evoke that direct comparison?

[vigilante397]

I build loads of "(insert amp name) in a box" pedals as that's more or less the niche that found me. Comparing my Fender and Marshall voiced boxes the main differences that stick out are tone stack component values and coupling cap size. Running my JCM800 pedal into my Champ clone produces a very Marshall-esque sound, despite the Fender-ness of the amp. Obviously solid-state emulations will be different, but from a tube perspective that's my $0.02.

[Steben]

Hard clipping and low cut pre gain EQ mostly

[Vivek]

I know nothing since I must have played with Tube Amps for maybe less than 20 hours in my life.

But I would feel that every stage in the amp has some contribution to the sound

I believe, especially for higher gain amps,  Mid cut of Tone Stack and Response of Cabinet might have greatest impact

If the question was "What two things can I change in Amp XXX to make it sound like Amp YYY", I would say, for high gain settings,

Change the Tone Stack
Change the Speaker

and you are almost there

[GibsonGM]

Drop the low end, mid scoop pre-distortion.  Run that into any REALLY dirty tube amp, people will probably say "that sounds like a Marshall!"   

Doesn't matter if I do this to my Fender, another kind of amp, or into a preamp like the "GTFO" >> cab sim >> PC.   Sounds like what people take to be a "classic Marshall".    Then if I play something like my 18Watt TMB, straight in...nope, doesn't sound like a Marshall (to the uninitiated)  lol.     I think people are so very used to the JCM800/900 that that's what comes to mind if you say "Marshall". 

[StephenGiles]

Aha the joy of reaching up for plugging into a Marshall amp perched on top of 2 4x12 cabinets - only a dream though!!!

[Nasse]

Used to have small top 50 watt non master volume and it was loudest and cleanest amp I have ever heard. I had only 2x12 but they were super efficient about 100 dB/W or something. So I never get the idea about distortion. But just watched yotube vid which asks if Hendrix  did Wind cries mary with Marshall brilliant channel...

[Vivek]

This question is closely related to

What is the Brown sound ?

And

What makes a Dumble a Dumble ?


And

Can you twidle the knobs on a XXXX amp and make it sound like YYYY ?

and

If you place EQ before and after XXXX amp, can it be made to sound like YYYY ?


And the most important question
Called the ship of Theseus conundrum

If you take amp XXXX, one by one replace each stage with a somewhat equivalent stage from another amp, at which point does it stop being an XXXX Amp ?

[kraal]

This question is closely related to:

- What is the Brown sound ?
- What makes a Dumble a Dumble ?
- Can you twidle the knobs on a XXXX amp and make it sound like YYYY ?
- If you place EQ before and after XXXX amp, can it be made to sound like YYYY ?
- If you take amp XXXX, one by one replace each stage with a somewhat equivalent stage from another amp, at which point does it stop being an XXXX Amp ?

In order:
- Eddie's tone (and a story meant to help his friend's amp repair/mod business)
- The handle
- Replace "amp" with "woman" in your question and the answer will become obvious: "kind of, up to a certain point if you're good (or deaf) enough"
- Same as previous answer
- The logo on the enclosure

P.S. I have no good answer for the original question... Maybe "mojo" ?

[duck_arse]

I have a Marshall Lead 12 - does it sound like a Marshall?

[Pete Moore]

I thought Eric, Angus and Eddied jump.out, if I bought 100 pedals with "Marshall" clout.
I built 100 more, some that I adore, still the "MarshallTone" tones seemed just outside the door.
A JTM45, though a great surprise, opened up my eyes, if there are Marshall Tones" in there, most are staying inside (4x12" '60' GB Cab. Various guitar/pickups all 4 inputs and bridges 'em too.

[pinkjimiphoton]

I have a Marshall Lead 12 - does it sound like a Marshall?

yep. i had one. sounded like all my other marshalls, pretty much

[dschwartz]

In my experience, boosted highs over 1kHz pre-distortion, a marshall tonestack (or mid scoop at 600-700Hz), hard clipping, and a sharp boost at 4.5kHz after clipping, makes the basic marshall tone.

[Mark Hammer]

Interesting in its detail.  Thanks for that. 

Now, perhaps the more critical question: is all of that important, or at least relevant, to making something sound Marshall-like at ANY gain setting (including mostly clean), or is it primarily for mimicking a dimed Marshall?

I have a Johnson J-Station, which has a number of amp models, as well as a bunch of (pretty good) effects, and cab simulations (if one goes into deep editing).  At gain settings lower than distorted, the models sound different from each other, but not really in any way that couldn't be replicated with more sophisticated EQ-ing.  At least that's my takeaway.

[Vivek]

In my experience, boosted highs over 1kHz pre-distortion, a marshall tonestack (or mid scoop at 600-700Hz), hard clipping, and a sharp boost at 4.5kHz after clipping, makes the basic marshall tone.

Dear Dr,

I would like to hear your similar views for :

Dumble
Fender
Vox

[Steben]

or is it primarily for mimicking a dimed Marshall?

yes it is.

I find it unlikely the masses would look for a dimed amp when talking about the Fender tone.

[PRR]

> "a Marshall in a box"?

[dschwartz]

In my experience, boosted highs over 1kHz pre-distortion, a marshall tonestack (or mid scoop at 600-700Hz), hard clipping, and a sharp boost at 4.5kHz after clipping, makes the basic marshall tone.

Dear Dr,

I would like to hear your similar views for :

Dumble
Fender
Vox

LoL
Well..I'm not shure about the dumble, since there's no standard "dumble" tone, each one was tailored to suit the buyer,AFAIK..
But i would make something like a fender twin with more gain and the "dumble" tonestack.

Theres is a lot more tone tweaking involved to make a pedal sound good in front of an amp, without overriding the "flavor" of amp you want to emulate.

[Sparky]

I started playing through  JTM 45's  and as the years progressed  kept moving up the gain ladder until the JCM 800 series  [Jubilee] came out.   They all sound different and they all sounded great but there really is no "Marshall Sound"   that totally defines the brand.   In retrospect there are plenty of amps that sounded more "Marshally"  to lots of people than an original Marshall   [at that point in time].    I always thought it funny when bands played classic rock stuff  [like Free, AC/DC,  Humble Pie,  etc etc]  with Mesa Boogie amps and were proud because they "nailed the tone"  of the original bands.    People associated distortion with a Marshall and really couldn't tell one amp from the next as long as it distorted.     My favorite bit is when everybody is marveling about Page's great Marshall tone when in fact he was using solid state amps.   I know from first hand experience what the Marshall "roar" is like from standing in front of various stacks and half-stacks on stage....but damn if a Katana amp doesn't almost nail it. 

[Steben]