Why is the field of Guitar Electronics so male dominated ?

[davent]

Electronics company Adafruit Industries founded by Limor "Ladyada" Fried in 2005, still around, must be doing okay. I've purchased products from them.

I think what we take up, hobbies/interests/professions has everything to do with what we were exposed to as kids, how many girls have someone take them under their wing and introduce them into the world of solder slinging?

https://www.adafruit.com/about

[moid]

I suspect this is the main culprit Davent, hobbies and also bias at school for subjects... I'm old enough to remember that only the boys got to do metalwork and anything to do with electricity - the girls had to learn sewing... which is massively sexist and certainly cannot have helped any of them decide to pursue a career in that direction. I know that's no longer the case thankfully, but these types of social 'norms' take a long time to break down sadly.

[Mark Hammer]

Perhaps the most documented male-female difference in cognition concerns the finding of greater verbal-social skill in females and greater spatial-quantitative skill in males.  As noted earlier, the range of skill in each area *within* a sex is much wider than the difference *between* men and women, as a group.  So there are average differences but a helluva lot of overlap.  The differences can be observed in early adolescence.

One of the most interesting theories of such sex differences came from psychologist Deborah Waber.  She noted that earlier maturing individuals in both sexes tended to show greater strength in the social-verbal domain and later physical maturation was associated with greater strength in the spatial-quantitative domain.  With females, as a group, generally physically maturing before males, that gave them a leg up on social-verbal skills.  Waber offered a biological interpretation of these findings.  Personally, I don't buy it.  Have you ever tried mental arithmetic while someone talks to you?  Skill in anything requires practice, and skill in the spatial-quantitative domains requires solitude.  In contrast, maturing early thrusts one into the social arena and gives you *lots* of practice in social and verbal skills.

One of the classic tasks used to study sex differences in cognition is the mental rotation task.  People are shown a wire-frame drawing of a 3-dimensional figure.  They are then shown another wire frame drawing and have to determine if it is the same "object", merely rotated along some axis, or a different object.  Typically males respond more quickly in this task, and make fewer errors.  Women don't fail in this task; they just aren't quite as fast or quite as accurate.  This is interpreted as greater facility in spatial reasoning for males.

What does this have to do with more men in engineering? and mathematics? and computer science? Mathematics is fundamentally mental rotation.  Knowing that whatever is on this side of the equal sign is the same as what's on that side, and HOW they are the same IS mental rotation.  Want a child to have facility in math?  Give them plenty of time to play with their Lego on their own.

But as moid astutely notes, one's hobbies have much to do with one's strengths and weaknesses, simply by virtue of how much opportunity they can provide to be familiar with materials.  The late Paula Caplan, who just passed away a few weeks ago, had a terrific study some years back, where she reasoned that maybe the traditional wire frame drawings were more familiar as "objects" to males than females, and that performance differences were simply that, and not reflective of ability.  She posited that if materials equally familiar to males and females were used, that differences in speed and errors would pretty much disappear.  She used a mental rotation task with letters, and the sex differences did disappear.

So what's the bottom line?  There ARE differences between the sexes in the sorts of skills and interests that would result in a greater presence of women in music engineering if such differences did not exist.  Are they biological in nature?  There's probably some individual differences between people that make some areas more intriguing to person A than person B, but when you consider all the social factors involved, whatever biological factors might play a role take a back seat....way in the back...to those social factors that provide areas of interest, opportunities to practice, and disincentives to participation.

There's "can" and there's "will".  One should never confuse the two.

[Rob Strand]

I suspect this is the main culprit Davent, hobbies and also bias at school for subjects... I'm old enough to remember that only the boys got to do metalwork and anything to do with electricity - the girls had to learn sewing... which is massively sexist and certainly cannot have helped any of them decide to pursue a career in that direction. I know that's no longer the case thankfully, but these types of social 'norms' take a long time to break down sadly.

Even music in general.  Girls were given the options piano, violin, chello, singing.   I don't recall a lot of female members in big bands back in the 1930's and 40's.   I guess during the war the lack of men gave women an opportunity to step in.   Plenty of good women players around now.   Just the other day I was going through some clips from Japanese drummer Senri Kawaguchi.    I'm not sure how things were in other cultures like there's a strong culture of guitar playing in Brazil.  In the 60's the women were known for singing and the guys for guitar, however, a lot of those women were quite formidable players.

[Rob Strand]

She posited that if materials equally familiar to males and females were used, that differences in speed and errors would pretty much disappear.  She used a mental rotation task with letters, and the sex differences did disappear.

So what's the bottom line?  There ARE differences between the sexes in the sorts of skills and interests that would result in a greater presence of women in music engineering if such differences did not exist.  Are they biological in nature?

You could argue that task is for untrained participants.  If you were allowed to develop a skill the results may change.  (A professional letter rotator might not be a good platform for comparison  ).

I'm surprise how dismally I do at reading the credits on movies and TV series which have the screen flipped (left-right), yet I learnt to read Thai writing.

[StephenGiles]

But how many males can make a decent coffee and walnut cake??

[andy-h-h]

Watch and learn

[Fancy Lime]

But how many males can make a decent coffee and walnut cake??

1) My walnut cake is better than my fuzz pedals.

2) My wife's walnut cake is better than my walnut cake.

3) My wife does not know what a fuzz pedal is.

This conclusively proves something or other, I'm sure. Mostly that, all things considered, being able to make a decent walnut cake may be the more useful skill in the ongoing apocalypse than making guitar pedals.

Joking aside, my wife's theory on this is that our hobby is a bit anti-social and that I like it because I'm 1/4 hermit crab and use pedal building as an escape from social interaction. She might have a point. The traditional gender narrative claims that women are more social than men. I have no idea if that is true a priori but it may well have become true by means of self fulfilling prophecy.

On the other hand, this still prevailing gender narrative may cause women and other non-members (no pun intended) of perceived or actual boys clubs like this one to either stay away or to choose nick names that do not reveal them as non-members of the in-group. Either way, us, the in-group, stating our awareness of the lack of diversity as well as the fact that this is not by design but by circumstance and that we welcome anyone and everyone, is at least a start towards more diversity. And diversity is usually way more interesting than homogeneity.

I think we are a rather inclusive and welcoming bunch, implicitly. But it may be worth a try saying so more explicitly. The sad fact is that many online communities are much more exclusive, especially those that are, for whatever initial reason, predominantly male.

Andy

[Phend]

Diana Ross is an American singer, songwriter and actress from Detroit. She rose to fame as the lead singer of the vocal group the Supremes, who became Motown's most successful act during the 1960s and one of the world's best-selling girl groups of all time. Wikipedia

[andy-h-h]

Perhaps some roads leading here have issues?   

I knew a very talented young woman, that excelled in electrical engineering and worked as a sound tech while studying.  She could not land as much work as her less capable / qualified male counterparts, likely due to not being one of the boys.  She thought it was sexist, and I would tend to agree (she worked for me for a period of time).

She only worked as a tech to get practical experience with the equipment she hoped to one day design.  People that didn't have antiquated views thought she was really impressive - others maybe just wanted a mate to drink beer with that also did their sound. 

Just my limited experience on the topic.

I have a kind of lame blog that keeps me amused - I occasionally check the demographic stats just for laughs.  It frequently sits at 0 - 5% female. 




   

[Mark Hammer]

I haven't yet watched The Pedal Movie, only the various trailers and out-takes on Youtube.  But if my recollection and the video footage is accurate, I saw more women in it than persons of colour.

Any field has in-groups and out-groups of this or that kind.  I'm not condoning or rationalizing it, just acknowledging that it exists, and that fairness demands acknowledging it, idenifying barriers, and removing barriers wherever possible.

That said, I learned in my former job that you can remove barriers and fling the doors as wide open as you want but you can't make people interested in the jobs or career paths you have to offer.  They will always choose what they feel fits them, and the reasons for the perceived fit can be something no one has control over.

[Phend]

Here is a real genius. .. the documentary on tv was very cool.

[Steben]

Would she make circuits work? Looks sophisticated enough for me? And it's bass. C'mon, that tells you a lot.
Just check it out: how many female bass players?

[Steben]

But as moid astutely notes, one's hobbies have much to do with one's strengths and weaknesses, simply by virtue of how much opportunity they can provide to be familiar with materials.  The late Paula Caplan, who just passed away a few weeks ago, had a terrific study some years back, where she reasoned that maybe the traditional wire frame drawings were more familiar as "objects" to males than females, and that performance differences were simply that, and not reflective of ability.  She posited that if materials equally familiar to males and females were used, that differences in speed and errors would pretty much disappear.  She used a mental rotation task with letters, and the sex differences did disappear.

So what's the bottom line?  There ARE differences between the sexes in the sorts of skills and interests that would result in a greater presence of women in music engineering if such differences did not exist.  Are they biological in nature?  There's probably some individual differences between people that make some areas more intriguing to person A than person B, but when you consider all the social factors involved, whatever biological factors might play a role take a back seat....way in the back...to those social factors that provide areas of interest, opportunities to practice, and disincentives to participation.

There's "can" and there's "will".  One should never confuse the two.

Reminds me of how being born Canadian makes you statistically a better ice hockey player. How in earth is that to proven biologically? 

[Mark Hammer]

how many female bass players?

If you follow Jeff Beck, plenty.  Now I'm wondering when Kinga Glyk will start touring with him.

[Jdansti]

I know of at least one female pedal builder on the forum because I helped her troubleshoot a pedal she built. She and her band have some great music videos. I wish I could remember her name.

Anyway, if any female builders or would-be builders are reading this and are shy about posting or commenting, please know that I don't know of anyone on this forum who wouldn't welcome you and treat you with the upmost dignity and respect. Yes, sometimes the banter can get locker room-ish, but any rude or disrespectful comments toward any member would be quickly shot down.

[marcelomd]

I heard, or read the following sometime ago, as an explanation/justification for creating women-only (or minority-only (or beginner-only)) groups in $ACTIVITY.

Imagine you are an "average" kid. And you want to start playing basketball. You walk to the court in your neighborhood and see 10-15 guys who are 2+meters tall, doing Globetrotter plays. Would you step in to play with them? Would you prefer to play with other "regular" kids, who are your age, height and skill level?

Makes sense, to me, that one would be hesitant to enter a group if they don't relate to anyone who's a part of it, or if they feel intimidated by the skill disparity, even if the in-group is perfectly welcoming.

So, maybe our niche is male dominated because it's already male dominated?

I think most of us would appreciate more diversity, and would welcome anyone interested if they show up, but I guess not too many have, or would commit the time and energy necessary to be an evangelist, for lack of a better word. Sometimes you just want to relax with your hobby, not to save the world.


That said. My n=1 experience is in line with males having more of an obsessive behavior towards a single interest, male dominated or not.

EDIT: Better wording

[davent]

Would she make circuits work? Looks sophisticated enough for me? And it's bass. C'mon, that tells you a lot.
Just check it out: how many female bass players?

A list of 25  barely scratches the surface...

https://www.udiscovermusic.com/stories/best-female-bassists/

[Phend]

How in earth is that to proven biologically?

Answer is..a fine Canadian  (and Yooper) sport. Curling.

[Fancy Lime]

I heard, or read the following sometime ago, as an explanation/justification for creating women-only (or minority-only (or beginner-only)) groups in $ACTIVITY.

Imagine you are an "average" kid. And you want to start playing basketball. You walk to the court in your neighborhood and see 10-15 guys who are 2+meters tall, doing Globetrotter plays. Would you step in to play with them? Would you prefer to play with other "regular" kids, who are your age, height and skill level?

Makes sense, to me, that one would be hesitant to enter a group if they don't relate to anyone who's a part of it, or if they feel intimidated by the skill disparity, even if the in-group is perfectly welcoming.

So, maybe our niche is male dominated because it's already male dominated?

I think most of us would appreciate more diversity, and would welcome anyone interested if they show up, but I guess not too many have, or would commit the time and energy necessary to be an evangelist, for lack of a better word. Sometimes you just want to relax with your hobby, not to save the world.


That said. My n=1 experience is in line with males having more of an obsessive behavior towards a single interest, male dominated or not.

EDIT: Better wording

I think that is a valid approach for any $ACTIVITY (saw what you did there and appreciate the humor but are these kinds of in-jokes helping with the inclusivity? Just kidding but the thought popped into my head immediately.) That is remotely competitive. However this forum feels more like a support group / self help dojo to me. The point is helping and teaching each other, not to compete, however friendly. I have very rarely seen smug or down putting comments directed at beginners at least in the past decade (somewhat different in the olden days). However, most people have seen enough of the internet by now to have gotten used to the "usual forum conduct" on more popular sites (especially Reddit but most forums on most subjects really), which isn't always quite so nice. There it often does feel like a competition for being righter or smarter than everyone else. This here really is a special place and it would be nice if some more people of different $PROPERTY would share that with us.

Andy