M5223L can I make a distortion/overdrive out of it?

[Thebrainless]

Hi folks!
I've come across an old M5223L ic, and from what I've found online it seems to be the starting point of an old version of boss ds1, is it correct?
Now, I was looking through the stuff I have to see if I could come up with a simple distortion or overdrive, and found this ic, but I can't find a simple schematic for it online. Does anyone here have something? I'd really like a stripped down version of the ds1, something with just a volume knob, with gain and tone fixed by trimpots, or even better, not a volume knob but a mix knob, so that once I've found THE sound I want from the circuit, is just a matter of how much to blend in with the clean signal. Is this something doable? Does anyone have such a schematic? Or is anyone here willing to help a noob out?
Thanks and merry "whatever you like" (not everyone likes Christmas, so...)!

[GibsonGM]

Looks like it's a drop-in replacement for most of the common opamps. Won't be a 'high quality' unit like a TL072, and that is probably just what you want for a dirt box    Making what you want - a type of DS-1 - is infinitely do-able, for sure.  Little 'research' can be done here:

https://www.electrosmash.com/boss-ds1-analysis

Another way to use this might be a stripped down Marshall Guv'nor type thing - I like that box, myself, with no tone stack. Easy, very kickass distortion (think GNR).  Don't think you'd 'blend in clean' with something so dirty, but some do, like wampler. Not hard.  Guvnor is kind of always on 10 anyway ha ha.

https://www.electrosmash.com/marshall-guvnor-analysis

What do you think? You'll find lots of help here, yes!

Merry Christmas to those who enjoy the holiday (for, wishing someone well and counting them in on the holiday is the very definition of 'inclusive'), and a happy day and good health to those who don't partake  

[iainpunk]

its an opamp like most others, its a smidge faster than a 741, so a good candidate for most overdrive, distortion boxes.

are they the 8-in-line or is it the DIP8 kind?

cheers

[Thebrainless]

Looks like it's a drop-in replacement for most of the common opamps. Won't be a 'high quality' unit like a TL072, and that is probably just what you want for a dirt box    Making what you want - a type of DS-1 - is infinitely do-able, for sure.  Little 'research' can be done here:

https://www.electrosmash.com/boss-ds1-analysis

Another way to use this might be a stripped down Marshall Guv'nor type thing - I like that box, myself, with no tone stack. Easy, very kickass distortion (think GNR).  Don't think you'd 'blend in clean' with something so dirty, but some do, like wampler. Not hard.  Guvnor is kind of always on 10 anyway ha ha.

https://www.electrosmash.com/marshall-guvnor-analysis

What do you think? You'll find lots of help here, yes!

Well, great! Dirt is what I want
To be honest, my favourite distortion is the Proco Rat, but I don't know, since I've found this ic used in the DS-1 I thought it'd be easier to create something from that one, but I'm open to suggestions here!
The Guvnor is great, never really thought about it though... well, from the schematic in the link you gave me it seems the easier one of the two, no transistors involved, and that's something I really like, 'cause I'll be doing this project with just the components I got laying around, that's why the M5223L.
All those pots might become trimpots or even standard resistors, once the tone I like (hence the resistors values) is achieved...
This might be the way indeed....

its an opamp like most others, its a smidge faster than a 741, so a good candidate for most overdrive, distortion boxes.

are they the 8-in-line or is it the DIP8 kind?

cheers

It's an 8-in line, beside pins positions, does it make any difference?

So, to sum it up: the circuit I'd like to obtain should be something like the Rat or the Guvnor or  (the easiest one wins) with fixed gain volume and tone, and a mix knob to blend the distortion in.

Let's start from the beginning, the power source: does it need to be 9 V or is it possible to go with lower voltages?

I'd like a stripped to the bone circuit, 'cause here's the most important detail of 'em all, this circuit is going to be placed in the control cavity of a guitar, that's why I want just the mix knob, I've got rid of the pickup selector and got a spare hole to put a potentiometer, which is gonna be a linear 220 K pot with a dpdt switch, so when it's off I got my normal volume and tone with a push pull to select bridge or neck pickup, when the switch is on it activates the battery and the distortion circuit and controls the mix of its signal.




As you can see there's plenty of room to fit everything, but still I'd like a very stripped to the bone circuit.

So, let the research begin!!!

[iainpunk]

theres no difference in actual chip between the square or long version.

what kind of sound do you want? for a simple distortion, you can have a DOD250 which only uses one of the opamps, a Rat (you can probably leave out the filter and output buffer), then you can use the other opamp as a mixing amp (opamp summer) so the impedance mismatch doesn't matter as much.

another thing to keep in mind is phase, that the peaks of the waves from the pick up and the waves of the distortion don't cancel each other out, this takes out mostly low end and leaves you with a harsh, fizzy, thin tone in the middle of the mix pot's rotation, distortion on one side and clean on the other.

cheers

[idy]

Maybe you have thought of it but with that set up (volume knob turns power on and switches circuit in) you will a get a loud pop when you do that. Not a thing you can do between verse and chorus. It's on or off all song and turn the amp down when you switch it in. Unless you leave the thing powered up all the time...  Possible  other solutions don't involve buffered mixer....

[GibsonGM]

What Iain said...and....what about a simple 'gain and clipper'?  MXR Distortion Plus is very simple, offers a lot of distortion for 1 gain stage... I use one often with my amp.    So, that's one section of the opamp.   THE most simple (but DIRTY) opamp distortion.


OR, a Guvnor, just omit the tone stack...that beast is HOT! 

Others have talked about how 'mix' may affect your phasing...that's real concern.  If you make a very simple distortion, you will lessen phase effects.  But you'll have to 'audition' them - without hearing them, you probably won't be able to decide on a 'special one'! 

[Thebrainless]

theres no difference in actual chip between the square or long version.

what kind of sound do you want? for a simple distortion, you can have a DOD250 which only uses one of the opamps, a Rat (you can probably leave out the filter and output buffer), then you can use the other opamp as a mixing amp (opamp summer) so the impedance mismatch doesn't matter as much.

another thing to keep in mind is phase, that the peaks of the waves from the pick up and the waves of the distortion don't cancel each other out, this takes out mostly low end and leaves you with a harsh, fizzy, thin tone in the middle of the mix pot's rotation, distortion on one side and clean on the other.

cheers

I've thought of something sounding like the Rat, but with the mix knob so that it could be just a little addiction to the sound or become fully it, don't know if this makes sense...
I didn't know the dod250, I'll search YouTube for samples...
What's an opamp summer?
The phase problem should be easy to solve, I might just copy the "mix" knob from something like the boss odb3, I guess that could solve it... Or am I simplifying things too much?

Maybe you have thought of it but with that set up (volume knob turns power on and switches circuit in) you will a get a loud pop when you do that. Not a thing you can do between verse and chorus. It's on or off all song and turn the amp down when you switch it in. Unless you leave the thing powered up all the time...  Possible  other solutions don't involve buffered mixer....

Well, AFAIK a capacitor resistor put in front of everything should remove that pop sound, anyway it's not something I plan to play live, it'll be more of a studio secret weapon 

What Iain said...and....what about a simple 'gain and clipper'?  MXR Distortion Plus is very simple, offers a lot of distortion for 1 gain stage... I use one often with my amp.    So, that's one section of the opamp.   THE most simple (but DIRTY) opamp distortion.


OR, a Guvnor, just omit the tone stack...that beast is HOT! 

Others have talked about how 'mix' may affect your phasing...that's real concern.  If you make a very simple distortion, you will lessen phase effects.  But you'll have to 'audition' them - without hearing them, you probably won't be able to decide on a 'special one'! 

Well I'm open to suggestions here, I'm no pedal expert, just know the classic ones, maybe not even all the classic ones...
At the end it's not about the amount of distortion, I don't want something to fully replace an amp dirty channel, I'd like to work more on tone, I'd like something that could go from a small boost to be 50% of the overall distortion maybe. When i put pedals in front of the amp I usually keep the gain around 10 o' clock, hardly go to 12, but the volume is almost always on max, and the tone depends, but usually more on the darker side. Don't know if this could help...
Anyway, I guess it'll be all "let's try this solution and see how it sounds", copying various stages from various pedals...
We'll see 
Thanks

[GibsonGM]

Since they paid those people a lot of money to design those stages, it seems like it might be to our benefit to utilize their hard work for our efforts    Copy away! 

[Thebrainless]

Since they paid those people a lot of money to design those stages, it seems like it might be to our benefit to utilize their hard work for our efforts    Copy away!

Well, the only problem now is how to get just the "balance" part in the odb3 schematic?



Can someone help with that? 

[GibsonGM]

Very happily for us, there is a FAR easier way to get some cleans blended in!!!      The one in the vid is one method.  Another way is to mix them thru a pot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TRMuM58Alg

[Thebrainless]

Very happily for us, there is a FAR easier way to get some cleans blended in!!!      The one in the vid is one method.  Another way is to mix them thru a pot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TRMuM58Alg

Mmmhh....but what about the phase here? I mean, if it's just as easy as puttin a pot in, and no phase issue appears, so the phase is not an issue, or is it?
Anyway I like more the way the "balance" pot of the odb3 works, with the wampler method, beside being a log pot and not a linear one so it isn't a smooth linear curve, it changes the tone a little too much IMHO.
Let's see what else we can find....

[iainpunk]

the phase issue depends on the circuit you use. a rat or dod250 don't cause problems, but things like the Guv'nor or blues breaker/morning glory do invert the phase, and cause problems. if you want to know what it sounds like, the Gretsch controfuzz does this out of phase mixer on purpose.

cheers

[Thebrainless]

the phase issue depends on the circuit you use. a rat or dod250 don't cause problems, but things like the Guv'nor or blues breaker/morning glory do invert the phase, and cause problems. if you want to know what it sounds like, the Gretsch controfuzz does this out of phase mixer on purpose.

cheers

So, if I got it right, the guvnor flips the phase cause the signal first goes through the non inverting input of the ic, then it goes through the inverting one, and that's how it gives a ton of gain, or at least that's what I see looking at the schematic, am I right?
So a solution could be going for lesser gain by using just one non inverting input on the ic, but that's not the best solution I guess...
Using both the non inverting, ore both the inverting, doesn't change things much, does it?
Any other way to flip the phase back to normal?

[iainpunk]

the guv'nor's tone is dependent on having that topology, but you can stil get high gain with a single non-inverting opamp, like the RAT. you can also stack 2 non inverting or inverting opamps, as long as they are the same in that regard.

what kind of tone do you have in mind? on a scale form very focussed to fat/fuzzy distortion, what are you after?
you could also do something like a normal or treble booster circuit, like, something rangemaster inspired, but with an opamp.
or just an active tone control, so that it can be set to 0 for clean, but you can boost or cut some frequencies if you see fit.

cheers

[GibsonGM]

Yup. And the other way is to add a transistor or opamp inverter to flip one of the signals so that when you sum there isn't a phasing issue. 

There is nothing AT ALL wrong with a RAT with a clean blend   Or Distortion Plus.  Or....

[Thebrainless]

the guv'nor's tone is dependent on having that topology, but you can stil get high gain with a single non-inverting opamp, like the RAT. you can also stack 2 non inverting or inverting opamps, as long as they are the same in that regard.

what kind of tone do you have in mind? on a scale form very focussed to fat/fuzzy distortion, what are you after?
you could also do something like a normal or treble booster circuit, like, something rangemaster inspired, but with an opamp.
or just an active tone control, so that it can be set to 0 for clean, but you can boost or cut some frequencies if you see fit.

cheers

I see...well, since the M5223L is a dual opamp, why use just one? 
I think I'll use both in non inverting mode, I'm still working on a schematic....
Tonewise I'd like a not so fuzzy distortion, quite focused but still fat, but in the end it's just something to be complementary to an amp's distortion, so nothing extreme, with controlled "mellow" highs and fat bass, it's hard to describe what I have in mind, I guess I'll have to keep trying circuits until I reach it

Yup. And the other way is to add a transistor or opamp inverter to flip one of the signals so that when you sum there isn't a phasing issue. 

There is nothing AT ALL wrong with a RAT with a clean blend   Or Distortion Plus.  Or....

Ok, no transistor involved here, I don't know how to use them, so let's keep them out 
As I wrote before, I'll go for a dual stage of distortion using both the opamps in non inverting mode, I've almost got a schematic sorted out, I hope it'll work  We'll see!

[Thebrainless]

So, I ended up creating something I think sounds great:
- here's a little sample of the "pedal" just by itself, the guitar's a cheap Cort with a Seymour Duncan PATB2, it's been double tracked and panned 100% left & right https://www.dropbox.com/s/jtxbim72wal0tyn/solo%20dist.mp3?dl=0
- here's the guitar directly into the amp, no pedal https://www.dropbox.com/s/0u8y375qulqv4c0/senza%20dist.mp3?dl=0
- here's the pedal through the amp, same setting as before https://www.dropbox.com/s/sr22ja4ft4gb7w6/con%20dist.mp3?dl=0

The riff's from "world eater" by Bolt Thrower
I intentionally went for an old school brutal sound, but this thing just seems to work everywhere, it has a unique sound to me, and the cool thing it's just 1 knob....
What'cha think?

[iainpunk]

holy shit dude, that stacked combination sounds amazing. it really gives a kind of HM-2 ish chainsaw vibe, but a tad less overkill.

any chance you could share the schematic, i'm just really curious about how you achieved that sound.

cheers