Countdown Phaser not responding to trimmers

[eh la bas ma]

I found your madbean's thread. It's in the Madbean projects section. Scruffie will probably miss it unless you post in Tech Help at  Lectric-fx sub-forum.

A complete list of IC's readings will probably make it easier for experienced forumites, more familiar with these ICs.

[duck_arse]

Of I lift leg1 on Range, the leg to IC6.2 pin 7, then pin7 has nowhere to go?
Should I short IC6.2 pin 7 to R82 directly? (The wiper R)

I want to isolate the IC6.2 output voltage from the rest of the circuit to see what happens around the oscillator. if you have a spare, you might remove the IC and bend that pin [?14? at 400%] out ...... dunno if that will do it or not.

[matopotato]

I found your madbean's thread. It's in the Madbean projects section. Scruffie will probably miss it unless you post in Tech Help at  Lectric-fx sub-forum.

A complete list of IC's readings will probably make it easier for experienced forumites, more familiar with these ICs.

Thanks!
I was not aware/confused.
Will adjust.

[puretube]

Did you try swapping IC7?

LFO=IC5.3 & IC5.1, while IC5.2 adds another (faster) "wobble" onto the main LFO-output, which is at IC5.3 pin8.

Your oscilloscoping seems to show it is working.
(IC5.1 pin1 should produce sudden big voltage jumps, at the same tempo as the max & min of the tri-wave on the main output.

[matopotato]

Of I lift leg1 on Range, the leg to IC6.2 pin 7, then pin7 has nowhere to go?
Should I short IC6.2 pin 7 to R82 directly? (The wiper R)

I want to isolate the IC6.2 output voltage from the rest of the circuit to see what happens around the oscillator. if you have a spare, you might remove the IC and bend that pin [?14? at 400%] out ...... dunno if that will do it or not.

The Range pot, wiper voltage when I sweep it more and more "up". (CW) I lower its resistance between leg 3 (pointing at IC 5.3 the out, pin8?) and 2, the wiper and the voltage increases.
It is first around 2V and as I turn it up is oscillates/swings. The low end climbs not too much, to 3 3.5 maybe and the upper end reaches 11.sth in the top before the swing turns back again.

Yes, understand better. IC6 has only 8 pins. And the one from the IC6.2 that is the output reaching Range, leg 1 is pin 7. They have connectivity. I was thinking of putting something like plastic or paper in the socket, but bent the leg anyway.
So pin 7 is away.
I then set it up for test again.
No signal, board powered up, T&R shorted and for a second my heart skipped a beat as the reading is now 0.8sth MHz as opposed to the previous 1.2. But turning either trimmer does not change the value. It flickers in the third digit, but does not feel significant in relation to the problem.

EDIT: My bad. had forgotten grounding the dmm...
It is still the same old 1.2sth MHz that floats around a bit so it sweeps, but very short interval no matter how I turn the trimmers


Anything else to explore while the IC 6.2 pin 7 (going to Range) is out?

[matopotato]

Did you try swapping IC7?

LFO=IC5.3 & IC5.1, while IC5.2 adds another (faster) "wobble" onto the main LFO-output, which is at IC5.3 pin8.

Your oscilloscoping seems to show it is working.
(IC5.1 pin1 should produce sudden big voltage jumps, at the same tempo as the max & min of the tri-wave on the main output.

Thanks, yes now I just did.
I took both IC7 and later IC8 the 4007 and 4047 but no change to the stuck Hz.
I also put the "phaser ones" in the flanger and it played, so I would think they are OK.
I also put the LM1458 when I was already messing around and still no change.

Also it seems there is no effect or difference if I short the T&R or R&S respectively, the TP shows the same values and behavior.
Checked the El caps orientation, same with the diodes, and the ICs. A few times actually

[matopotato]

I found your madbean's thread. It's in the Madbean projects section. Scruffie will probably miss it unless you post in Tech Help at  Lectric-fx sub-forum.

A complete list of IC's readings will probably make it easier for experienced forumites, more familiar with these ICs.

Again thanks,
I opened this thread: https://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=34269.0
I will make a new set of measurements on the legs later on, hopefully during the weekend unless earlier.

[matopotato]

Does anyone know or have an educated guess where the TP would be located in the schematics?

[puretube]

Does anyone know or have an educated guess where the TP would be located in the schematics?

It`s either pin13 of IC8, or pins13/12/8 of IC7. (the latter 3 are combined).
Check if you can see it by the coppertraces on the PCB.
These pins13 should show the same (HF square-wave-form) on the scope,
whereby pin13 of IC7 is inverted (upside-down) compared to IC8`s pin13.
When there is no HF on pin13 of IC8, there also cannot be HF on pin13 of IC7.
If there is HF on IC8 but not on IC7, then IC7 does not work ...

[matopotato]

Does anyone know or have an educated guess where the TP would be located in the schematics?

It`s either pin13 of IC8, or pins13/12/8 of IC7. (the latter 3 are combined).
Check if you can see it by the coppertraces on the PCB.
These pins13 should show the same (HF square-wave-form) on the scope,
whereby pin13 of IC7 is inverted (upside-down) compared to IC8`s pin13.
When there is no HF on pin13 of IC8, there also cannot be HF on pin13 of IC7.
If there is HF on IC8 but not on IC7, then IC7 does not work ...

Thanks, it was neither though. IC8 pin 10 (?!). And you are right about the traces. Should have known to check myself. But you put me in the right area. 
Will try the other things later on with the scope.

[puretube]

Does anyone know or have an educated guess where the TP would be located in the schematics?

It`s either pin13 of IC8, or pins13/12/8 of IC7. (the latter 3 are combined).
Check if you can see it by the coppertraces on the PCB.
These pins13 should show the same (HF square-wave-form) on the scope,
whereby pin13 of IC7 is inverted (upside-down) compared to IC8`s pin13.
When there is no HF on pin13 of IC8, there also cannot be HF on pin13 of IC7.
If there is HF on IC8 but not on IC7, then IC7 does not work ...

Thanks, it was neither though. IC8 pin 10 (?!). And you are right about the traces. Should have known to check myself. But you put me in the right area. 
Will try the other things later on with the scope.

Ahh - OK! Thanks for looking that up - it tells us, that the TP (from IC8, 10) only shows half the frequency of the frequency which drives the 4016-switches (from IC8, pin13) ...
see fig.1 in the datasheet: https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd4047b.pdf
That means you should read twice (!) the TP-frequency on pin13 of IC8 & pins13/12/8 of IC7.

Now we know the real working-frequency of the "switched resistors" in the circuit.

This is still true:

If there is HF on IC8 but not on IC7*, then IC7 does not work ...
*[EDIT:pins13/12/8]

[matopotato]

Ok, I returned the DMM with Hz meter since I felt stuck for now. Connected scope for fun and sine tone generator on input jist to see what happens. Set up scope with nice sine wave and then put it on TP. And I get a sqare wave?
The square wave expands and contracts along x-axis. The two shots are sort of at the turningpoints.
I was really expecting something more sine-ish...
Turning them trimmers I see the maxfre affects the square. The clkfre perhaps but harder to tell
So I guess not all my solders were cold after all...
I tried to compare pin 13 of ic8 and 7 and tp.
But the IC pins make a sort of one sided square wave with top being strong and if there is a bottom, very faint. Some settings moving from the tp view to pin 13 on either and thebwhole osc screen goes blank. Out of bounds i suppose.
I will now try to re measure the IC voltages and present in a better way than preciously.
Without signal and why not with signal.
Meanwhile I really hope someone will read this and getnsome nice idea to try based on getting a square vave...

[puretube]

Squarewave @ TP is perfect! Expanding/contracting along x-axis is even better!
When the scope shows 2 squares on the screen @ TP, pin13 of IC8 should show 4 squares.
Pin13 of IC7 should also show 4. (Double frequency).
(Turn Range down, and ClkRange to max. resistance, so the square does not exp./contr. too much).

[matopotato]

I did another round of measurements. And this time added bigger numbers to the schematic to see where.

To see these pictures on the phone, I find it best to click here, then on the "postimage" page, click again and open in new tab. Then you can zoom and all.






Measurements
Only power, no signal. T R S not connected. All main pots fully CCW (I think)
"9V" 9,19V
"15V" 15,01V
"TP" 7,07 - 7,10

IC1 TL072
7,47    14,91
7,47      7,45
6,82      7,46
0,00      7,45

IC2 LM348N
7,45    7,44
7,44    7,43
7,45    7,40
14,91  0,00
7,43    7,45
7,45    7,44
7,45    7,44

IC3 LM348N
7,08     7,15
7,09     7,29
7,06     7,22
14,87    0
6,94     7,42
6,97     7,43
6,89     7,43

IC4 LM348N
7,25     7,07
7,26     7,15
7,27     7,10
14,86    0
6,37     6,46
7,31     7,29
7,32     7,41

IC5 LM324N
0,75               5,04
7,44               5,03
2,4 - 12,46 *  5,01
14,90             0
7,33               7,44
7,47               7,48
7,47               3,3 - 11,9 *

* pin 3 and 8 fluctuate slowly across the interval with a full sweep taking 42 seconds 
pin 3 tends to "jump" the last 2-3 volts to close to either extreme and then "normal" sweep again.
pin 8 does not "jump"

IC6 LM1458N
4,05    14,96
5,12      8,18
5,13      4,11
0,00      4,12

IC7 CD4007
8,13     14,47
3,74     3,56
4,04     3,56
2,20     14,46
2,09     10,59
10,59   0
0,00     3,56

IC8 CD4047
10,30 (or 10,39?)   14,46
3,74                      10,58
8,22                        0
14,46                      7,18
14,46                      7,05
14,46                      0
0,00                        0

IC9 CD4016
7,05     14,46
6,93     3,55
7,08     3,55
7,03     7,43
3,55     7,42
3,56     7,21
0,00     7,29

IC10 CD4016
2,66     14,46
2,61     3,55
2,48     3,55
2,67     7,21
3,55     7,27
3,55     7,10
0,00     7,23

IC11 LT1054
0,00   9,19
4,52   6,33
0,00   3,43
0,00   0,00

IC12 78L15
    _________
  /                 \
/                   \
|                     |
|____________|
  1       2      3
15,01   0     17,0

[matopotato]

Squarewave @ TP is perfect! Expanding/contracting along x-axis is even better!
When the scope shows 2 squares on the screen @ TP, pin13 of IC8 should show 4 squares.
Pin13 of IC7 should also show 4. (Double frequency).
(Turn Range down, and ClkRange to max. resistance, so the square does not exp./contr. too much).

Thanks!
Tried again.
This time there is no contraction/expansion, but I might have turned the mainpots or removed T P S or something.
However, previous time I could not see anything sensible on pin 13's
But now I get the square with 8,5 "tops" over the screen (Shortest sweep so could not dial in just two squares)
And on the 13's I get 17 or 16,5 "tops". So that checks out nicely!
IC8 pin 13 and IC7 pin 13 squares differ in as much as one has a broad top and quite narrow bottom, and the other the opposite, as if inverted.

EDIT: IT was the RANGE pot that made it swing. I stuck it now, and changed Maxfre trimmer until I got two squares, then IC7 pin 13 shows 4, with long tops and narrow b*tt*ms.
For IC8 pin13 I have to fiddle with the position to see it but it quickly disappears again, but when I get to see it is as previously but sort of inverted in shape. 4 squares too.

Do you think the square shaped wave is what made the DMM on Hz fail?
Right now I can get the square to change by turning either ClkRange or MaxFre. Different impacts but they do affect it.
I am still not sure if it is enough to make a difference.
Measuring 35 kHz and 650kHz respectively from the scope is a challenge for me I think
And all this is done with to tone generator on (I think) 1 kHz to the input jack.

Anyway, I feel for the first time some glimmer of hope and touch of progress I was not expecting 
I really appreciate all the tips and support I have gotten so far in this case.

[matopotato]

OK, I must say I am quite surprised. I would have liked to edit the title to SOLVED .... and will see if this attempt works or not.
Anyway, I had been using a DMM with Hz setting that I returned last week. (I hope to get to try one more time tomorrow, we'll see). So after the recent post from @puretube suggesting to compare the frequency on TP with IC 7 and 8 pin 13 of each to see if they had double frequency of TP.

I took out the scope yesterday and tried out and it was doubled as suggested, but the wave was a square wave. I now understand that it was the expected shape, and after asking the manufacturer of the DMM, it should be able to measure frequency accurately regardless of shape.
So today I got the scope out again and tried the trimmers. And the frequency changes on the scope notably so I began calculating how many squares a cycle should be for 35kHz and 650kHz respectively. Not very exact numbers, but I managed to tweak Maxfre to the wanted position, then the Clkrange I had to go all they way to one end and it still was not quite right. I felt a bit disheartened first ("this close and still ...") but went back to the other trimmer and after adjusting it again, the Clkrange was possible to fit as well. A few rounds for sure, but less sensitive to set than the Flanger (Flintlock).
Still sceptic to the end result, I plugged it in, And after some knob turning, it actually Phases!
Amazing!
What did I do to make to go from no phase to this, I have no idea. I did lift and later solder back R88. And if that had a weak solder before? Feels a little bit too lucky for that.
I also lifted pin 7 on IC6 and put back, but again would be surprised if that step made it all work suddenly.

I cannot thank enough everyone who helped out with anything from ideas to encouragement. It means more than you might think. Yes, it's just a pedal. But the time and effort put in plus the hopes and expectations suddenly stopping in its tracks. From that point it is easy enough to question your reasons for and competence on building pedals.

First impressions:
I was expecting something different phase-ish.
But two days ago I managed to finish a compressor (Pumpernickel) and I was not overly impressed or excited by the end result.
Today, it sings a different tune all together and will make it on the board(s). (Actually all pedals do....)
So I have hopes that this Countdown Phaser will come through, once it is boxed and tweaking begins.
Only knob I felt didn't have any or much effect is the "Sweep Modulation". I doubt there is another miss, but any ideas on how to set it or what to listen for would be appreciated.

Again,
Many thanks!

[matopotato]

I got the Hz meter again. With the scope I was somewhat close like 34kHz and 660kHz (or similar).
Using the Hz meter to adjust as close to 35 and 650 I found that Clkrange never reaches 650, the trimmer hits the bottom. And although adjusting with maxfre "works" it throws off the 35 in the process. So I settled for 34.8 or 34.9 and high 650's.
I guess that will for for my ears at least.
If I had to choose one to nail and the other a bit left to its own, which should that be? Or better to get both as close as possible?

EDIT: And how much does it affect the sound and in which way?

[puretube]

Don`t worry - a couple of +/- kHz makes much less difference than the +/- 10% tolerances of the 1n caps and the 15k resistors in the phaseshift-circuits.

[matopotato]

Don`t worry - a couple of +/- kHz makes much less difference than the +/- 10% tolerances of the 1n caps and the 15k resistors in the phaseshift-circuits.

Great 
Out of curiosity and to learn more:
In what way would a variation of either affect the sound?