No heat toner transfer

[GGBB]

Has anyone tried this? Does it work as well as the video shows and is it as easy?

[Kevin Mitchell]

Well, I can tell you how not to do it 

I think I've tried it twice, once with my sisters nail polish remover and once with my own solution (rubbing alcohol with a little acetone). Neither yielded reliable transfers.
However, that's likely because my preferred media at the time was double-sided gloss paper which is thick and the solution could not easily penetrate it.
If you try it, definitely use magazine paper.

[Mark Hammer]

1) Oh yeah, I am simply jonesing to have my house smell like a nail salon.

2) Solvents are not good for your nervous system or to expose your skin to.

[Eddododo]

I fail to see what's so difficult about heat transfer that would make stinking like acetone, getting it all over you, and then putting in the mechanical effort would somehow be better.

Also, I'm a tech for production printers by trade, and a) I'm skeptical that results would be consistent at all across a range of OEM toners and b) if the acetone is enough to chemically loosen the bond and allow it to adhere to a new surface, it's certainly also enough to distort or bleed or whatever else. It's also not impossible for it to bleed the print on the magazine.

Toner is fixed to paper by heat, period, and similarly heat is a good way to unfix it and reapply it- if you're struggling with heat transfer, it's as simple as a few tricks- use a thin, glossy paper.. even better if it's only coated on ONE side (the side to be printed on). Use settings on the printer for a thinner paper than what is being used- this will under-fuse the toner, allowing it to be freed easier and cooking it less, allowing it to better fuse to a new medium. And then either turn up the printing density if possible, print in process black (black PLUS CMY) to give a higher buildup, or if your printer registers well, simply reprint the image on the page multiple times.

[GGBB]

I fail to see what's so difficult about heat transfer that would make stinking like acetone, getting it all over you, and then putting in the mechanical effort would somehow be better.

Also, I'm a tech for production printers by trade, and a) I'm skeptical that results would be consistent at all across a range of OEM toners and b) if the acetone is enough to chemically loosen the bond and allow it to adhere to a new surface, it's certainly also enough to distort or bleed or whatever else. It's also not impossible for it to bleed the print on the magazine.

Toner is fixed to paper by heat, period, and similarly heat is a good way to unfix it and reapply it- if you're struggling with heat transfer, it's as simple as a few tricks- use a thin, glossy paper.. even better if it's only coated on ONE side (the side to be printed on). Use settings on the printer for a thinner paper than what is being used- this will under-fuse the toner, allowing it to be freed easier and cooking it less, allowing it to better fuse to a new medium. And then either turn up the printing density if possible, print in process black (black PLUS CMY) to give a higher buildup, or if your printer registers well, simply reprint the image on the page multiple times.

Thanks but that's not really the point. I never said there was anything wrong or difficult with heat transfer, and wasn't asking how to do it properly. I was merely inquiring about experiences with this alternate no-heat approach.

[Mark Hammer]

If a person had no access to optimal materials for thermal toner transfer, then I suppose this might work,  How consistently is an open question, that Gord raised.

Over the years, I've found that the trickiest part of transferring toner with heat is being able to register when the entire pattern is successfully transferred.  Press-n-peel is great because the acetate sheet is thin enough that heat makes it sag around the toner, so that a complete transfer looks like a bas relief.  Photo paper is generally too thick to be able to tell, requiring greater ironing time.  I buy these thin yellow sheets that are A4-sized.  Thicker than PnP, but much thinner than photo or magazine paper, and transfer well.  Cheaper than PnP, too.

[GGBB]

If a person had no access to optimal materials for thermal toner transfer, then I suppose this might work,  How consistently is an open question, that Gord raised.

Over the years, I've found that the trickiest part of transferring toner with heat is being able to register when the entire pattern is successfully transferred.  Press-n-peel is great because the acetate sheet is thin enough that heat makes it sag around the toner, so that a complete transfer looks like a bas relief.  Photo paper is generally too thick to be able to tell, requiring greater ironing time.  I buy these thin yellow sheets that are A4-sized.  Thicker than PnP, but much thinner than photo or magazine paper, and transfer well.  Cheaper than PnP, too.

Sorry Mark, but access to heat transfer materials isn't relevant. If this works well and isn't difficult, that's all that matters. It not about how to do it if you can't do heat transfer.

(Trying to nip this "how to properly do heat transfer" talk in the bud before this topic becomes derailed by off-topic comments.)

[Chillums]

I think Mark is just trying to help bud.  Not trying to rustle any feathers but I've tried this (acetone) multiple times and failed miserably every time.  I think the easiest and most consistent way is to buy a cheap/used laminator and go nuts. 

[GGBB]

I think Mark is just trying to help bud. 

I have no doubts about that. Just trying to keep the thread on topic. Apologies, Mark, if I came across as critical or negative. Tone often gets lost in the transfer to type.

Not trying to rustle any feathers but I've tried this (acetone) multiple times and failed miserably every time.  I think the easiest and most consistent way is to buy a cheap/used laminator and go nuts.

This is the kind of feedback I was hoping for - thanks. The video made it look a little too easy to believe (but I find many thermal toner transfer videos the same - it takes some trial and error to get it right.) Did you use pure acetone or some kind of nail polish remover?

[Mark Hammer]

I think Mark is just trying to help bud. 

I have no doubts about that. Just trying to keep the thread on topic. Apologies, Mark, if I came across as critical or negative. Tone often gets lost in the transfer to type.

Not trying to rustle any feathers but I've tried this (acetone) multiple times and failed miserably every time.  I think the easiest and most consistent way is to buy a cheap/used laminator and go nuts.

This is the kind of feedback I was hoping for - thanks. The video made it look a little too easy to believe (but I find many thermal toner transfer videos the same - it takes some trial and error to get it right.) Did you use pure acetone or some kind of nail polish remover?

No worries.  Us Canucks  can get testy from the heat! 
Hope the flood didn't affect you.

[GGBB]

Hope the flood didn't affect you.

OT!

Thanks. Lots of rain in my neighbourhood but no flooding thankfully.

[GGBB]

Realizing I don't have to actually etch to test this, I gave it a shot.



Not good enough but shows potential. Note that the printout wasn't perfect to start with. This was my 4th attempt. The first three weren't as good but not far off. I first tried twice with magazine paper, but that doesn't release very well and left tiny holes in the toner. So I switched to glossy photo paper which releases super well. Scoring the back of the photo paper lightly but densely with a razor dramatically improved penetration. I also tried wicking a small amount of solution directly onto the PCB from the edge - seemed to help a bit. I used an acetone and distilled water solution about 3-1 but I think playing with this is critical. I noticed that the 3-1 mix is significantly less effective at removing toner from the PCB than pure acetone.

As the photo reveals, release from the photo paper is not an issue. But bleed/smear seems to happen - I imagine that's due to the solution. Maybe actual nail polish remover is the secret sauce (I don't have any at hand). Technique could be a factor too. Maybe the toner matters as well (FTR I used Xerox printer/toner).

All in all - I think it could work, but I find this even more fiddly than thermal transfer and has more variables to mess up. Anyone else find the right mixture of ingredients and technique with this to make it work?

[Chillums]

I gave up on the acetone but yours looks way better then all my failed attempts.  I've got the iron method down pretty good but it took many attempts to perfect it.  Have to get the temperature exactly right.  Too little heat and it doesn't release.  Too much heat and it runs and bubbles over.  Then when you think you got it down on say 1590B size boards and you try and do a 1590BB size board everything changes as there is more copper/mass which means you need more heat.  It can be frustrating... Thank God for places like JLCPCB and PCBway.   
If you do decide and go the laminator route make sure you get one that will accept whatever thickness (typically 1.6mm) your copper clad is.   I've been told most laminators will be able to handle the  thickness no problem only a few won't.   I'm sure you can find YouTube videos where they tell you what model they are using.   Mr Carlson's Lab is a good place to check as that's where I first saw it done.   
Good luck!!
Off to the Grassroots Festival all weekend....

[intripped]

I think that the most interesting application of this technique would be for preparing boxes to be etched.
when i tried the thermal-transfer on aluminium boxes i got bad results, because the temperature setting for PCBs isn't good for boxes as well, so i had to re-start the optimization process; also i found that ironing artworks on boxes it's not as easy as on the thin and slightly flexible PCB material.

[Nasse]

https://www.instructables.com/Heatless-cold-Toner-Transfer-for-PCB-Making/ 

Another variation and video of subject, have not tried it. Sometimes nail polish remover does contain some grease or oil and whatever but perhaps it does not always matter.

[GGBB]

Gave that a try - used methyl instead of ethyl alcohol. Definitely an improvement over my previous results - the smear effect was gone and it's a bit less fiddly this way. I would say still not quite good enough, but my combination of photo paper and printer didn't produce great printouts so that's a factor that I would need to improve.

[Kevin Mitchell]

https://www.instructables.com/Heatless-cold-Toner-Transfer-for-PCB-Making/ 

Another variation and video of subject, have not tried it. Sometimes nail polish remover does contain some grease or oil and whatever but perhaps it does not always matter.

I was going to say, the guide I followed years ago recommended to not use scented NP removers - IIRC

[camelfish]

Hello all, having tried all solvents in all proprortions, I can honestly say - don't bother, you'll never get consistant results. The only way to go is heat transfer. Use good quality proper wax transfer paper (the yellow stuff) and an iron.
Get it as hot as buggery and rub it all over with the tip of the iron. Let it cool to hand hot and peel off when it's hot NOT cold like some people say. Oh and make sure your toner cartridge is fairly new as one on its last legs is not good, although the transfers look ok on the paper, they wont be strong/thick enough.

[GGBB]

Hello all, having tried all solvents in all proprortions, I can honestly say - don't bother, you'll never get consistant results. The only way to go is heat transfer.

My experiences with thermal tonal transfer have shown it to be somewhat inconsistent as well, so I personally don't think the no-heat method is any worse in that regard. And in the few tests I did with no-heat, I would say it has the potential for consistency equal to that of thermal. The problem I have is that it is more fussy/fiddly than thermal, making it less straightforward to carry out. I'd rather have to work to manage the heat correctly than mix up a solution of chemicals. That's really the only bit that's different between the two.

[amptramp]

I wonder if there is a printer that can (or can be modified to) take a board directly without having to transfer anything.  Just print the artwork directly onto the board and be done with it.  I think existing printers might be able to do so with flexprint material, the orange Kapton stuff they make interconnecting cables from.