King Nothing (the Kingsley Harlot clone) and DPDT selection?

[matopotato]

Hi,
I got a kit for building King Nothing tube based pedal.
The build instruction is here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AhgdvQF9y32I8An0m1vaOU9VhufoSSim/view

It calls for an on/on/on DPDT and the link to Tayda points out 1M6 and its datasheet.


Comparing this to the schematic (full schematic for full context in build instruction link)



I get the following
Tayda pos 1 results in R16 effectively bypassed and no impact on R19
Tayda pos 3 results in R16 engaged but R19 bypassed.

The variant depicted in Tayda doc ( I would call it type 2, but it seems to be a bit of an open question as to what is named type 1 and what is type 2, so I just refer it now to the Tayda variant)
would result in its middle position that both R16 and R19 are bypassed.
(The other DPDT type would of course have both included in its middle position).

I did not find much clarity as to what the DPDT is supposed to do with the signal so I am asking for best guess unless someone knows what it should be of course.
One could also put in 2 SPDTs and have all combinations, but that might be a bit messier than I prefer especially considering this being a higher voltage build.

Thanks

[antonis]

MODE 6 shunts R19 (grounds C10) so output LPF consists of R11/C10 only..

MODE 2 raises Q1's gain to max (R15*g_m) due to Source been grounded..

[matopotato]

Thanks,
I read that the DPDT is supposed to provide different Gain structures/types/levels.
Given that the dptd give mode2 or mode6 in eitjer of the outside positions, what would be your take on what the middle position should do?
Both modes or neither?

[antonis]

I'm confused a bit 'cause TAYDA's doc isn't in accordance with King Nothing schematic..

Can't see the reason for bulding doc calling for a ON-ON-ON DPDT (3-WAY) while respective schematic calls for a ON-ON one (2-WAY)..

[matopotato]

I'm confused a bit 'cause TAYDA's doc isn't in accordance with King Nothing schematic..

Can't see the reason for bulding doc calling for a ON-ON-ON DPDT (3-WAY) while respective schematic calls for a ON-ON one (2-WAY)..

Efcharistó!
You mean if the switch is as per tayda, then an on/off/on would achive the same result?
(That is one of my conclusions)

But if the DPDT would have been the other type, then it would matter.

Which returns me to my concern as to what is expected in then middle position:
If R16 and R19 should be effectively been taken out by grounding or shunting as per Tayda link (or as well as on/off/on), then either such switch would do the job.

But if middle should be R16 and R19 should be connected as per schematic (with MODE refs ignored)
Then a DPDT on/on/on of "the other type" would do the job. (1-2 & 5-6 in middle).
My problem is I cannot guess what is the intention here, as I do not understand how each of the two middleposition optios would impact gain?
I could assume that position 1 2 through 3 should affect gain in some linear way like least, medium, most or reversed. But that is just an assumption. Middle could be one of the extemes anyway if design didnt want to mess too much with topology layout.

So with my limited understanding I would very much like to hear opinions along the line of "well, if I was designing and somehow ended up with this, I would have inteded Middle position to do... (xyz)" and then from there I could draw conclusions about which switch to use.

And had this been a regulat 9-18V build, I'd have breadboarded it and run around with my lose cables and all. But being around higher voltage in the 250s and the wordsmof caution in the doc, and it being my first such HV build, I prefer to work by theory as much as possible first.

[FiveseveN]

With the MODE-2 net grounded you get more gain.
With the MODE-6 net grounded you get less treble.
An intermediate position with both "off" is perfectly reasonable, as is a separate switch for each. The indicated 1MD6T2B1M1QES is also a valid option (grounds both nets in the middle position).
PS: there are no high voltages on these nets so you don't have to fear them.
PPS: Are R11 and C10 values really correct? That's a 154 Hz corner frequency, quite the low pass.

[matopotato]

With the MODE-2 net grounded you get more gain.
With the MODE-6 net grounded you get less treble.
An intermediate position with both "off" is perfectly reasonable, as is a separate switch for each. The indicated 1MD6T2B1M1QES is also a valid option (grounds both nets in the middle position).
PS: there are no high voltages on these nets so you don't have to fear them.
PPS: Are R11 and C10 values really correct? That's a 154 Hz corner frequency, quite the low pass.

Thanks!
Ok, so either selection "makes sense" it seems?
Upper left corner (R5) has 250V...
No idea about R11 C10...

[FiveseveN]

Upper left corner (R5) has 250V

And C6 is there to block it.

[idy]

I think the logical three choices are
1)Low gain and normal treble
2)More gain and normal treble
3)More gain and less treble.

The choice of less gain and less treble seems the odd one out. I remember the Dirty Little Secrets, trying to cop something like a superlead/super bass, gave the choice: High gain, less treble= super lead, low gain, natural treble=super bass. Common mod is use two switches, and I like the high gain clear treble setting. that would require a switch where in the center position pins 1+2 are shorted, and 5+6.

[matopotato]

I think the logical three choices are
1)Low gain and normal treble
2)More gain and normal treble
3)More gain and less treble.

The choice of less gain and less treble seems the odd one out. I remember the Dirty Little Secrets, trying to cop something like a superlead/super bass, gave the choice: High gain, less treble= super lead, low gain, natural treble=super bass. Common mod is use two switches, and I like the high gain clear treble setting. that would require a switch where in the center position pins 1+2 are shorted, and 5+6.

Thanks!
So the opposite of the "pos 2" in the tayda pinout above? (Red rectangle)

[matopotato]

Some of the feedback I am getting from another forum seems to indicate that the on/on/on "type2" as per the picture from Tayda is used. And it would be the same effect as having on/off/on instead.

I think the logical three choices are
1)Low gain and normal treble
2)More gain and normal treble
3)More gain and less treble.

The choice of less gain and less treble seems the odd one out.

But that is what I get from pos 3 in the picture (1-2 + 4-5)...

To achieve 1) I need 1-2 + 5-6 which would need a "Type 1" DPDT (middle)
2) needs 2-3 + 5-6 pos 1 of either type
3) needs 2-3 + 4-5 which is "Type 2" DPDT (middle)

I remember the Dirty Little Secrets, trying to cop something like a superlead/super bass, gave the choice: High gain, less treble= super lead, low gain, natural treble=super bass. Common mod is use two switches, and I like the high gain clear treble setting. that would require a switch where in the center position pins 1+2 are shorted, and 5+6.

So 2 x SPDT would be an option I guess. That would allow all 4 possibilities although the less gain, less treble might not be used much.

[matopotato]

I got reply from the designer at Conspiracy to commit electronics that it should be on/on/on "type2" as referred to earlier. And that is the one on the tayda link with 2-3 & 5-4 pins in middle.
Still not sure what the difference is from using on/off/on then in this case...

[FiveseveN]

Still not sure what the difference is from using on/off/on then in this case...

Like I said,
ON-ON-ON type 2: both nets grounded in the middle position
ON-OFF-ON: both nets open in the middle position
Big difference.

[matopotato]

Still not sure what the difference is from using on/off/on then in this case...

Like I said,
ON-ON-ON type 2: both nets grounded in the middle position
ON-OFF-ON: both nets open in the middle position
Big difference.

Thanks,
Sorry my bad. 1-2 & 5-6 (type1) would mean the switch is not affecting the circuit. Which would be the same as on/off/on.
Sorry for the confusion.