sun face fuzzface scheme...

[rx5]

anyone got one or links to a diagram of it??


really wanna try it.....



thanks....


-Ralph

[Craig V]

Do you mean the Analog Man Sunface?  

If so, I don't think it is wise to ask for a schematic here - Analog Mike posts here sometimes.  If it is for repair, I would email him and I'm sure he would be glad to help.

But, if you want something close, I bet it is just a well matched and balanced Fuzz Face clone.  The "sundial" is probably a bias pot on Q2.

Sorry if this isn't the answer you wanted.

[RDV]

Mike's secret is no secret. Quality. Great transistors and neat, sturdy wiring. Like Z.VEX, his stuff is killer, and well built.

Regards

RDV

[fuzzless]

I had a sunface but sold it on a wim for a vintage wah and some power tubes.  It's the best FF type pedal I have heard and I definitely will get another one.  Hopefully it will be just as good!

[bettycat]

Ralph, I don´t think it´s very nice to ask for this because as you may know, Analog Mike as well as Robert Keeley, Zachary Vex, Dave Fox and some other guys are building pedals for their living and this is something that we should respect !!! They are always available for your questions and their customer support is top notch. So I think it´s kind of "unethical" and not fair to clone their products or even trace down and publish the circuits. I think it´s fair to say: if you really want a Sun Face, buy one from Mike or try to catch a used one from a member here, on HC or on eBay.
Besides this there are soooo many circuits out there to build, that there is really no need to ruin a nice guys business.

No, this was not meant offensive in any way and no, I´m not Mike´s employe

[george]

I remember going to the AnalogMan's site and checking out his SunFAce pages.

He shows enough of the guts of one to know:
- he has a trimmer pot in place of the standard 8k2 resistor on the collector of Q2, which can be adjusted to allow for different gains of various germanium transistors - 10k would probably do nicely
- he has a trimmer on the input

very similar to the 69 pedal project on generalguitargadgets:

http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/v2/diagrams/fuzzface_b_sc_pn.gif

Now all you need is the NKT275 transistors .... good luck finding them ;-)

[rx5]

Ok...was just wondering since all fuzzfaces has 2 control knobs (fuzz, output).... wondered where the 3rd pot?? trimmer?? was connected to....

If I understand correctly, the 3rd control was used to bias something? or was it....

I think Ill just try making the PNP silicon types.... those NKT's might not be available locally.....

thanks for the reply guys......

[bwanasonic]

I think Ill just try making the PNP silicon types.... those NKT's might not be available locally.....

If you are going with silicon, you may as well use NPN. There are a number of sources where you might be able to get some PNP germanium transistors matched for fuzz face use:

http://www.banzaieffects.com/parts/transist.htm

http://hometown.aol.co.uk/oldradioparts/semiconductors.htm

http://www.smallbearelec.com/

Good luck
Kerry M

PS. Don't forget to check out the "technology of the fuzz face" article at www.geofx.com if you haven't already.

[rx5]

bwanasonic,


thanks man.... those links ARE great big help to me....  

think Im not gonna ask for a sunface scheme anymore... got it all figured out....

-trimmer in the input to reduce gain and loading(of guitar)
-trimmer replaced in the colector(2nd tranny) to bias for 1/2 supply voltage

hope my assumptions are right....

gonna do any inventory in my place for ANY Ge trannys available...and bring my DMM to test the Hfe.. I dunno if the standard HFE test in my DMM can also be aplied to Ge's...... could it be??

once again, thanks....      :wink:

[fuzzless]

When testing Hfe with a DMM, it probably won't deduct leakage.  While really leaky transistors may still have a usable Hfe, they might not sound right.  Sometimes, they might not work at all.

Also the input trimmer pot is not needed unless you want to make it seem like you've permantly turned your guitar volume down.  That's all it does.  The important part is the bias trimmer for Q2 and good transistors.

BTW, if the transistors aren't in the right tolerences the circuit won't bias up right off the bat, so that bias pot is a great idea.

Good luck finding NKT275s! If you do find authentic and good sounding NKT275s, let me know!

[rx5]

done my reseach for the fuzzface...

So whats the big deal with Ge trannys for fuzzface?? is there a big difference in using low gain(70-120) PNP silicon transistors from the Germaniums??




fuzzless,

I think I cant find NKT275 here....

and I've read from another site: AC125 is an equiv of NKT275....

what PNP silicon is close enough to sound like the germaniums?? specially the NKT275??

[fuzzless]

AC125s will work in the circuit, but are not the same.  I wish they were though!

[rx5]

well, could I use just ANY Ge tranny with low leakage and hfe of 70-120 ??

how much does a couple of NKT275 anyway?

[bwanasonic]

If you are making a silicon version there is almost no point in making it PNP. The silicon versions of the original were NPN.  While a selected pair of NKT275s would be nice, many people have made wonderful sounding Fuzz Faces with other germanium transistors. Just make sure to use sockets and try whatever you can get your hands on. The silicon version is almost a different effect as far as I'm concerned, but I like it very much also.

Kerry M

[petemoore]

At GEO explains FF'z eloquently. Tell's all about what transistors to use and how to use them.
 Try a matched set of Ge's [or more] from Small Bear Electronics, or look in early transistor radios for them. The ones from Small Bear are as sure fire as you're gonna get and you won't need the Ge gain tesiting device. They come with R value documentation, for biasing.
 Ive done my share of FF transistor swapping...lol

[rx5]

hi guys,
heres my build report:

standard fuzz face:
just like Joe Gagan's easy face using silicon for 1st stage and Germanium for 2nd stage....

Q1=2N3906 with an Hfe of 180
Q2=2SB54 (havent tested its gain yet) worth 1/2 USD and the only one left , nowhere else to be found...
8.2K = changed to 10K pot as bias
1Kpot = changed to 5K, cant seem to fid 1K pot here....
470R = 1K for more output
500Kpot = 100K..... just used 100K...

used a drained 9V battery....output was <7VDC
=========================

well at first it sounded terrible...no matter how I adjust the 10K bias pot and gain pot.....

then flipped the 2SB54...now its sound really nice.... the pinout I had in mind was incorrect... my pinout was

bottom view:
 
  E      C
  o      o
      o
     B    
===========

I think this is the correct pinout:

 C      E
 o      o
     o
     B

==================
it sounded like korn "here to stay" intro or was it "bring it down".... buzzy (like chainsaw) and lots of sustain...very sensitive to guitar...
very very nice..... But I think it would really be nicer if I get another Ge tranny... only 1 piece left .... and they cant order them anymore.....

well, I know now how a "fuzz face" sounds like  ....  But was really hoping I could find AC128 or NKT275...for the sake of "vintage" feeling.....

here was my Ge list:
AC128
AC125
NKT275
2N527
2N508
ECG158
2SB54   <--- only 1 piece available and nothing more.... obsolete!!
2SB56
2SB77


any other lists bout Ge you could reccomend???

well at least THIS THING works....hehehehehe :twisted:      :lol:  :twisted:  :twisted:

=========================
petemoore,

think gonna do a Ge hunting again tommorow...... :twisted:  :evil:  :twisted:  

==========================
bwanasonic,
BTW, what type of tranny was used by Jimi Hendrix?? a silicon or Germanium type??

============================

well, thats all for now...... cya


-ralph

[brett]

Jimi used silicon transistors in his fuzzface (probably BC108s, I suppose).  Hmm...maybe Ge transistors alone don't make God-like music.  

I like modded Si transistors in my EasyFace.  To get my "hybrid" Si/Ge sound, you take an Si tranny with the right Hfe (ie Hfe~100, e.g. a BD140) and put a small cap across the base-collector junction.  About 47 to 100pF is cool, tho a bit more can be used, too, if you don't mind a little muddiness.  The extra junction charge storage (of the cap) emulates early Ge transistors quite well, and rolls off some of the high frequency fizz.

re the suggestion that

Also the input trimmer pot is not needed unless you want to make it seem like you've permantly turned your guitar volume down.

An input pot or trimmer can have effects other than volume control.  For example, a 250kA pot will provide a much higher (and frequency-independent) load to the pickups than a bare FF front-end.  This might actually INCREASE the volume out of the FF (by significantly lowering losses in the pickups).  I believe that's why there's a pot at the input to the EasyFace.

Have fun with your FF clone!!

[brett]

Oh yeah, the best addition to your Ge tranny list, in my opninion, is the AC127.  It's the NPN complement of the AC128.  They are also less leaky and more consistent in Hfe than AC128s.  So why do people persist in wanting AC128s?  I don't know !! :wink:

[rx5]

hello again....

did a gain test on the 2SB54:

I did the setup by R.G.Keen using 2.2M and 2.4K...used 10K pot to get 2.479K... and applied 9VDC to it... the reading accross the 2.479K was 8.5VDC..... I know this is way so much to be used for an FF....isnt it?? closing and releasing the sw made no diff...as if the transistor is always "on"....compared it to the silicon, the silicon has NO leakage....

Is this kind of tranny STill OK?? I mean is it damaged?? I just breadboarded it and never have soldered it...
 
so this means this is a high-gain type Ge??

is a high-gain Ge not usable as an FF?? or how about it being a "heavy metal" FF ??

it sounds kinda mushy..lacking highs...but I think that can be done by changing the .1uF to .001 or somthing..

need you feedbacks pls...... thanks



-Ralph

[bwanasonic]

Jimi used silicon transistors in his fuzzface (probably BC108s, I suppose).  Hmm...maybe Ge transistors alone don't make God-like music.  

From what I know, the first Hendrix album (Are You Experienced) is the sound of germanium. I'm not sure when the switch to silicon was made, but may have been as early as the next album (Axis:Bold Is Love).


Kerry M