Ansil, why oh why do you hate perf?

ExpAnonColin · November 20, 2003, 09:27:32 PM

I've never "perfed" before, mostly just PCB's I've sort of constructed out of the RS sort of pre-PCB things... And I'm planning on perf-boarding my next bunch of pedals, just because making your own PCBs (design and the process) seems like a chore. Why shouldn't I?

-Colin

Rory · November 20, 2003, 09:52:52 PM

I do EVERYTHING on perf, really love it. Normally, I get the stuff that has no copper on it at all. I recently tried the pad per hole stuff and its pretty cool too, but you have to make sure you have a fresh tip and solder that isn't too thick.

petemoore · November 20, 2003, 09:53:46 PM

I could say that.
Because I'm waiting for PCB's to come in the mail...there's no reason I can't tell you how much easier it'll be to correctly wire a ckt.
I've thought it over, and for all the trouble you would have to go to to get a usable PCB ... transferring the schematic drawing to a layout, getting all the supplies ready etc etc. by the time you do all that you could have your parts on the perfboard [might not be connected in the right places but...lol]
Since all the layout work is often already done, and once you have everything to make PCB's, you would notice that actually wiring it corredtly is a breeze compared to figureing it out on perf, expecially for a more complicated project...
I think the PCB's I ordered are quite reasonabley priced and I like the idea that someone's figuring the whole thing out and has a setup to make nice boards [probably better than I could do] and is practiced at it/using supplies frugally [ I would think beginners have had bad PCB's].
Well the point is STRONGLY made, and still won't prevent the use of perf...lol !!! Could be there's some humor intended there...but I think he does HATE perf>I used to hate perf too...my long dissertation of how perf flips everything over and backwards adding 4X the complications is probably in archives somewhere...not really that interesting seeing on how I've so far used perf for everything [I used to strap parts to a board with the schematic glues to it...[very hard to miswire that way by the way] but as it turns the flimsyness of that method proved to be a major downfall...plus it made the ckts bulky...lol...don't try that [semi-hanging garden] at home...
I have no prob recommending perfs for lower parts count ckt's like FF etc.
When it comes to like phasers, it 'could' and has be done on perf, but a PCB makes it exponentially easier, according to my calculations.
PCB making is probably a good thing to get experiance doing early if you plan on doing much more than a few ckts.
We lost a few newb's do to newb ckt failures, but I think most ppl who try this and succeed [say even one hit out of the first three tries] get addicted to it. That first ckt Fire can be very exciting, and the reminders of it as the time goes by is just as good..especially if the ckt. really ROX
Perf, PCB, whatever...as long as there are some actives on there, it's exciting !!!!

Ansil · November 20, 2003, 10:07:42 PM

basically it is like this. almost everytime i perf it has gone wrong.. i stab myself with the ic sockets cause i am trying to keep the thing from falling out. and then i go through and have to use some flower wire to make a makeshift perf trace. and hope it holds. when i solder to a pcb i have never had problems.

Peter Snowberg · November 20, 2003, 10:19:14 PM

Hey Ansil,

Have you tried pad-per-hole perf with plated through holes? I don't like anything but that for protos. Single sided boards just don't do it for me.

-Peter

ExpAnonColin · November 20, 2003, 11:15:57 PM

Hmm... well for the Parallel Universe, there are not too many parts at all, and I'd rather not spend the time getting the .pcb file just right, so I think I'll just do perf's. Ansil-I poke myself with those sockets all the time, too. Hurts like crazy!

It makes sense that PCBs are better for larger things... I'll stick to perf for now, it's more logical and sort of systematic, to sort of watch all of the connections take place as you solder them rather than to just put parts on and have it work.

-Colin

Ansil · November 20, 2003, 11:36:23 PM

Quote from: Peter SnowbergHey Ansil,

Have you tried pad-per-hole perf with plated through holes? I don't like anything but that for protos. Single sided boards just don't do it for me.

-Peter

yest and it is the only way to fly

petemoore · November 20, 2003, 11:41:04 PM

But I never poked myself with a socket...you must be using some different sockets.
Dut solid core can do a hatchet job on your 'left 'index' 'finger' 'tip'
dagouch...I wish that never happens ...!

Ansil · November 20, 2003, 11:46:07 PM

the ones i have are flat steel that is razor sharp..

drew · November 21, 2003, 12:06:27 AM

Making my own PCBs (as opposed to ordering them from a shop- which I love!) seems like trouble compared to pad-per-hole. The boards Small Bear stocks are wonderful and I use them for everything. I am in the process of building up an SSL compressor clone ( http://www.gyraf.dk/gy_pd/ssl/ssl_sch.gif ) on pad-per-hole board, and it is working out quite well. I typically use the pads to hold components in place, then clip and wire the leads together. Usually all I need extra is one or two jumper wires, and a bus wire for ground and +V and that's it!

Now, back to the shop thing... it's surprisingly cheap to get boards made at a shop, especially if you're short on time. I need to get a computer that'll let me use something reasonable to do layouts- right now I can't even find a schematic program that works. (mac, os 9)

drew
toothpastefordinner.com

ExpAnonColin · November 21, 2003, 12:16:35 AM

Quote from: drewMaking my own PCBs (as opposed to ordering them from a shop- which I love!) seems like trouble compared to pad-per-hole. The boards Small Bear stocks are wonderful and I use them for everything. I am in the process of building up an SSL compressor clone ( http://www.gyraf.dk/gy_pd/ssl/ssl_sch.gif ) on pad-per-hole board, and it is working out quite well. I typically use the pads to hold components in place, then clip and wire the leads together. Usually all I need extra is one or two jumper wires, and a bus wire for ground and +V and that's it!

Now, back to the shop thing... it's surprisingly cheap to get boards made at a shop, especially if you're short on time. I need to get a computer that'll let me use something reasonable to do layouts- right now I can't even find a schematic program that works. (mac, os 9)

drew
toothpastefordinner.com

http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/2231
PCBwarrior - it works, it's just hard to learn/use.

-Colin

RDV · November 21, 2003, 12:19:11 AM

RDV · November 21, 2003, 12:19:42 AM

Paul Marossy · November 21, 2003, 12:20:34 AM

I'll take the "trouble" of making a PCB over using perf anyday. Like it was said earlier in this thread, it makes wiring it correctly a piece of cake. I also like to design PCBs by hand with AutoCAD. It's kinda cool being to design stuff like that. But, I work in the consulting engineering field and have to design stuff all the time. A lot of the time, it's not much fun, though. I design ductwork layouts that have to fit inside of floor trusses without crossing ducts anywhere, etc. It's a lot like designing a single sided PCB!

I have used perfboard from time to time, but I use it only for the simplest circuits - something like a DOD 250 for example. But most of time, it's actually more expedient for me to etch a PCB and drill it and populate that than it is for me to wire stuff, check it , double check it, find a screw up, desolder it, check it again, wire it some more, check it again, and once more... well, you get the point.

Just my two cents.

ExpAnonColin · November 21, 2003, 12:23:14 AM

When using PCB CAD programs, how do you guys manage to get the IC pinouts perfectly aligned? Are there some dimensions I'm missing? That's my big problem, I can't decide how big to make the leads and holes and whatnot.

-Colin

RDV · November 21, 2003, 12:28:42 AM

Quote from: Paul MarossyI'll take the "trouble" of making a PCB over using perf anyday. Like it was said earlier in this thread, it makes wiring it correctly a piece of cake. I also like to design PCBs by hand with AutoCAD. It's kinda cool being to design stuff like that. But, I work in the consulting engineering field and have to design stuff all the time. A lot of the time, it's not much fun, though. I design ductwork layouts that have to fit inside of floor trusses without crossing ducts anywhere, etc. It's a lot like designing a single sided PCB!

I have used perfboard from time to time, but I use it only for the simplest circuits - something like a DOD 250 for example. But most of time, it's actually more expedient for me to etch a PCB and drill it and populate that than it is for me to wire stuff, check it , double check it, find a screw up, desolder it, check it again, wire it some more, check it again, and once more... well, you get the point.

Just my two cents.

Do you use the blue paper? I'm thinking of trying to do my own PCBs, but I keep reading "Horror Stories" about not being able to get it to transfer, etc. Any tips from someone who seems to have consistant success would be greatly appreciated.

Regards

RDV

MarkB · November 21, 2003, 12:30:45 AM

So far, I've built 2 fuzzfaces on perf - 1 worked... and I've got a 1/2 built Obsidian on perf (1 gain-stage) - not working... yet every PCB project I've tried has worked on the first try!

I think I'm just too sloppy to do perf/pad-per-hole stuff.. as simple as it seems (I even drew out a nice layout for the obsidian) I just haven't had good luck with it.

I've only made 4 or 5 PCBs so far, but I don't mind it - they've all turned out really good, and it wasn't too hard.

PCB for ME!
"-)

BillyJ · November 21, 2003, 01:40:10 AM

Hate perf. Always looks like coplete hell when i go that route. things all over and under each other...yuck!

I did get myself a really nice toy.
It is a weller circuit vise. It cost a lot but it is so worht it.
It used to take me forever to comlete a circuit and pleant of stabed fingers from ICs pleanty of burned fingers, plent of ugly joints.
This vice holds the circuit right in place and dig this, it has a little handle on the side and you can flip from trace to component side just like that.
The really cool thing though is this little arm with a sponge like stuff on the end.
You use this to hold components in place while you solder.
I freakin hate those little roach clips with the magnafying glass...almost as bad as perf. :lol:
Sorry I don't have a link. I know mouser has them but I think I got mine fro EE for less.

petemoore · November 21, 2003, 01:49:03 AM

I did a phaze 90 on perf...never again!!!
It worked the first time, but took hours to get on there...I just spaced it out as I went...Whew !!!

bwanasonic · November 21, 2003, 02:49:03 AM

Quote from: Paul MarossyBut, I work in the consulting engineering field and have to design stuff all the time. A lot of the time, it's not much fun, though. I design ductwork layouts that have to fit inside of floor trusses without crossing ducts anywhere, etc.

I somehow don't think this fits the profile of the average DIY effects maker. I could never understand the emphasis on PCBs in most literature on DIY effects. If you read the original Craig Anderton's EPFM, he mentions he has NEVER etched and drilled a board for one of his projects, yet the entire book is aimed at making PCBs. If EPFM was more perf friendly, I would have been making effects 15-20 years ago. Of course you reach a limit of complexity where perf is more hassle than it's worth. Personally, I don't get anywhere near the satisfaction from building an effect with someone else's PCB as I do from from a perf effect I've laid out myself. I hope to get into PCB etching/drilling, but in a small apartment with two kids, a cat (and a few hamsters) , I try to keep the usage of nasty chemicals to minimum. Poking your fingers with an IC socket is nuisance, splashing Ferric Chloride in your eyes is a serious bummer.

Kerry M

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Ansil, why oh why do you hate perf?

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