Ansil, why oh why do you hate perf?

[zachary vex]

experimenter's socket first, pad-per-hole second.  i've never liked the thru-hole pad-per stuff much.  i've manufactured using pad-per-hole with great success... first run or two... by then i've had it fully designed and tested on pc board and move on.

[aron]

As you guys know, I love Perfboard.

I did use PCBs that people generously donated to me for projects I have designed and I was amazed when it actually took just as long to populate a medium sized board like the Shaka 3 than perfboard.

In fact, I was a little faster using perfboard.

The problem with PCB was that at the end, when I had a problem, then I had to essentially debug the layout.

With perfboard, I rarely have to debug the layout since I did it.

I think doing the layout yourself teaches you a lot about the circuit - even if you don't understand it initially.

When you buy PCBs and just stick things in, I don't think that you learn quite as much as laying it out by hand on perfboard.

But that's just my opinion from this person that cannot make PCBs yet. :?

[jsleep]

As those of you who know me have already guessed, I'm pcb crazy.   In fact they call me "Crazy PCB JD"  (in a loud obnoxious Barker voice and wearing a huge hidious hat that looks like a giant PCB) "We've got so many PCBs we got 'em comin' out of our ears!!!" etc...Some Friday morning humor I guess.

Once you get geared up to do pcbs, life can be much easier than the perfboard life, but if you like to keep life simple and you have an organized methodical mind, perfboard is a good alternative.  and, uh, sometimes buying pre-made pcbs might be a good option  :roll:  A lot depends on how much stuff you build on an ongoing basis.

Since the moderator of this forum is a perf'er, I'll hold off on any strong language about my true thoughts on the subject :lol:  hehehehe

JD

[B Tremblay]

Well, with all the perf layouts at the 'Groove, it's no mystery where my loyalties lie.

However, I see perf and PCB as having a symbiotic relationship.  Many of my perf builds have been based on PCB layouts, including my first-ever DIY effect, the Muff Fuzz (many thanks to "Crazy PCB JD").

I agree with Aron's sentiment that perf gives you a hands-on understanding of the circuit.  It's somewhat similar to solving a puzzle at times.

But if I decide to tackle a complex project, I will probably opt for a RTS PCB.

[Marcos - Munky]

In fact, I was a little faster using perfboard.

I would say perfboard is very faster than PCB. In PCB you have to draw the layout in a paper, verify it, then draw it in the board, then etch, then clean, then populate and solder. Will have a lot of work, but I love PCB. I use it in all things that I build. I started to use PCB because perfboard are very expensive here. I don't hate perfboard, but don't love it too. I just don't use it.

[ExpAnonColin]

I think I'd probably do PCBs if I could get PCBwarrior to be nice to me, then I'd have futurlec make them for me and save me the ferric chloride in my eyes.  I think I'll stay with perf for a while-I'm just as likely to make a mistake on perf as I am on PCB, and doing PCBs by hand would take me a long time.  I'm more of a straightforward person, so yeah, I think I'll stay with perf until I get a quite complex thing I want to do.  Do any of you guys know any place where you can send them your perfboard and they'll make PCBs for you?

-Colin

[Doug H]

IMO, the whole PCB vs. Perf thing is a matter of personal taste. If you make your own PCB's, in the end I believe you will spend just as much time with either method.

The question becomes, what do you like to spend your time doing? From that point on it is a matter of personal taste.

Comparing apples to apples:

1. A layout design needs to be done with either method.

2. PCB requires transferring the artwork to copper clad and etching and drilling. Perf requires no "prep work" like this and you can immediately start populating the board once you have a layout design.

3. Once you get to the point of populating the board, PCB is faster and easier, just pop the components in and solder. Perf requires you to route the connections manually. You can spend time doing this here with perf, or you can spend time transferring the "routing" to the board and drilling in step 2 with PCB- your choice.

4. PCB has the advantage that components can be removed and re-inserted later more easily than regular perf, where component leads are left long and bent for routing. Pad-per-hole perf alleviates this, as components can be mounted with trimmed leads, just like PCB and excess lead trim can then be used to provide routing. However, except to fix mistakes, it's not a good idea to do a lot of this with PCB or pad-per-hole as eventually traces will lift off the board. (Do all your prototyping with breadboard!!!)

5. I have not made any more wiring mistakes with either method. The last few years I have done exclusively perf and 99% of the time it works the first time I plug it in.

6. For a manufacturer, PCB is preferable for large quantity production. It takes less labor to populate a PCB board than to populate and route a perf board. You can hire services to make PCB's for you.

Personal taste: Step 2 drives me nuts. I have yet to find a consistent method for transferring artwork to PCB using iron-on methods. For one-off hobby circuits I'm not interested in setting up the equipt to do photo transfer. For me, perf is just much simpler.

The easiest method of all is to buy a pre-made PCB board. This will limit your options for tweaking and modifications though. But for (DIY or commercial) clone work, this is a good way to go IMO.

Doug

[Rory]

When I first started out, I was doing really simple things on PCBs which, looking back, was very time consuming.  Projects like the LPB, Muff Fuzz, and Bazz Fuss are quite simple to do on perf and are definitely time consuming to do on PCB.  BUT, if I was going to do runs of maybe 5-10+, PCBs would be much quicker to do.  So, my thoughts are: If I'm making a one-off of a pedal, I will always do perf.  But if I've got an order for quite a few, chances are I'll go ahead and make some PCBs on a large copper board.

[Bill_F]

Doesn't perf limit you to what your willing to try? I know there are some perf warriors out there that are willing to go where most men dare not. But I'm not sure that many but the most advanced would attempt something like a small clone on perfboard. I might be wrong, but I don't think so.
I know in my own case when I discovered PCB it opened up a whole new dimension. I was able to start building those projects that were considered to be more advanced. Such as the small clone. Now I'm waiting on the parts for the AD-3208 analog echo over at JD's site. Which is another one I would never dream of doing on perf.
Preparing the board, etching ec. is a pain and I don't like it. But I do like the projects it allows me to build so I put up with it. Plus I have enjoyed a much higher success rate on PCB than I did on perf. I like that too!  :lol:

Just my two cents. Might not even be worth that.

Bill

[Kilby]

Just to add my 2c worth.

To me it's different horces for different courses.

At college (oh so many years ago) it was perfboard and wire wrap (a wonderful method of prototyping. Strip board was OK, and PCBs where a pain in the arse, as you either used a pen or letraset transfers, which always leeled off when the techs where etching the boards.

Now after 16 years of no active electronic design I have discovered these effects sites.

However after building a couple of pedals (using existing PCBs and press n peel), I have decided that I like PCBs best.

1: It's simply more fun, for me it's the whole process of even making the PCB.

2: I make a pedal for myself and one for my son (hes only ,

3: On perfboard I would end up making the damn thing atleast three times, once to prove it and then reducing the footprint the board has (call me fussy). Some sad day I will start surface mount devices.

4: It looks better.

This next one is gonna cause people to get upset so here goes

5: Using perfboard it's so easy to put somthing together when there is no obviously available PCB (the 3 legged dog circut for instance). Simply wire it up the same the schematic and it should work.

But getting a nice neat PCB layout is a quite different matter (even with cad packages). It's like spending 3 days writing a shell script to save yourself 10 minutes. It's not nessicary but it's a challenge and has the added bonus that anytime you want to produce the same PCB it's quick & easy.

However for designing your own circuits and tweaking  perf (or better still old style wire wrap) are the only way to go, until you have a final design.

Rob...

[Ansil]

i too remember the wire wrap.

[Nasse]

I have wife and kids, lousy salary and day job that stinks, and thousands of other excuses why I dont get not so many circuits ready and working.

I think working circuit on a perfboard is better than no working circuit at all.  http://www.freewebs.com/nassetronics/unfinishedstuff.htm

I once found this kind of circuit board, you could work with it like doing on a perfboard but it is made from fibreglass/epoxy. I live in periferia, dont know if it is available anywhere.

But of course everybody wants a perfectly designed neat and durable results. But too much precision is technical disability.

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

I live in periferia, .

Thought that was "PERFieria" at first
eriously, anyone who builds ANYTHING is a hero, especially if they have a wife & kids! Good one! (and keep those old yellow ciuits coming.. hope you get that scanner)

[RDV]

Wow. Finland. When I was a kid in the 70's my next door neighbor was a Finnish stewardess. She was hot.

Just thought I'd add that irrelevant tidbit.

RDV

[mike darling]

I think I'd probably do PCBs if I could get PCBwarrior to be nice to me, then I'd have futurlec make them for me and save me the ferric chloride in my eyes.

What problems are you having with PCBwarrior? I've used it with much success. It's a little quirky, but I find it very easy to use and great for simple layouts.

I'm starting to work with Osmond now, since I just found out I can capture schematics with Designworks and move them over for layout. The learning curve is much steeper with this one, at least for me.

mike

[ExpAnonColin]

I think I'd probably do PCBs if I could get PCBwarrior to be nice to me, then I'd have futurlec make them for me and save me the ferric chloride in my eyes.

What problems are you having with PCBwarrior? I've used it with much success. It's a little quirky, but I find it very easy to use and great for simple layouts.

I'm starting to work with Osmond now, since I just found out I can capture schematics with Designworks and move them over for layout. The learning curve is much steeper with this one, at least for me.

mike

My problem was that it was hard to get the measurements just right-like, how far apart are the pins on an IC? Transistor?  How big should I make the holes?  How wide the trace?  Etc.

-Colin

[mike darling]

My problem was that it was hard to get the measurements just right-like, how far apart are the pins on an IC? Transistor?  How big should I make the holes?  How wide the trace?  Etc.

-Colin

Um, didn't you get a parts library when you downloaded the program? There are a lot of parts already made up and they were included with the last version I downloaded.

Pins on components are usually on a 0.1" grid, or some multiple of that. You can set the grid in PCBwarrior to whatever dimension you want and set it to snap to that grid, if you're making your own parts.

Last time I made a layout with PCBwarrior i did the following:

1. increase the pad diameter for all parts. By default it's set very small, which is good for manufactured boards - bad for hombrew PNP layouts that'll have hand drilled holes. You can make the pads pretty big, if you don't need to run traces between IC pins.

2. Trace width can be just about anything, as long as you keep it LESS than the pad diameter. This will keep solder on the pad, rather than flowing it back onto the trace.

3. I made the holes in the pads very small. You want them large enough to come through the PNP process, but smaller than the drill diameter. They act more as an aid to center the drill in the pad than anything else.


I can forward you the parts library I have if you need it, but you can probably download them from mr. Kloos' ftp site. Look for the link on www.versiontracker.com.

[aron]

The way I look at it, if the circuit is simple, use perf, if it starts getting complex or you need to make more than 1, consider PCB.

Contrary to Doug, I found populating and wiring the PCB took longer overall. For a circuit like my Shaka 3, I can make the Perfboard and wire it in the same time it took me to populate the PCB (while reading the instructions) and wire.

I was bummed that I didn't save a lot of time by using the PCB.

[smoguzbenjamin]

I think I prefer perf. PCB's seem like a pain in the ass, I've heard loadsof stories about press 'n' peel etc being hard to transfer. That, and I don't have a laserprinter. Perf for me.

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

This is a very useful discussion....and one thing that is obvious, is that "people are different". You don't realise HOW different, until you find ppl who ENJOY making layouts! Personally, I find prototyping a HUGE hassle, and srtipboard is the ideal compromise between perf & having to do a board. I have a friend who does these amazing pad board constructions, blobs of solder everywhere.. BUT, they work!! even when there is a tiny bit of hacked -off scrap board i there with a surface mount chip on it!! (yeah, he'll hack a bit of PCB off an old PCB board & use it to mount a surfacemount chip ion!)