Way Huge Schematics?

[Samuel]

Not to reiterate the above too much, but I think the problem may not lie in sites like GGG/Tonepad, but in finding ways to take "the next step". I'm getting to the point where just building other people's designs / layouts is starting to get a little old, but I can definitely see there's a learning curve plateau here I need to figure out how to get across.

In any case, perhaps it's a bit like college: tons of people go to college, many many fewer make it to grad school. I don't think Tonepad or GGG is responsible or at fault for people who "just want to build stuff", which I think is respectable in its own right.

[Chris R]

We also have to remember that there is ALOT of learning associated with trying to build your own pedal.  

We jumped in to make pedals (designed by others) when we probably were not at the right stage with our soldering / electronic skills.. whats stopping us from jumping into design the same way ?

Also.. we don't have to start from scratch.. there are plenty of simple circuits we can gleam off of.. and the simple mods page has alot of info.

Chris

[Aharon]

I've realized for a while now, that my site has really done a disservice to the DIY community in this respect.  My good intentions to share the  layouts I drew up have led to some laziness in the community.  Maybe even bringing in people that should never have been here, "mud wrestling a pig" so to speak.  But, there is some good to be gotten for those who really are into DIY, cloning is not always evil.  Shoot, I think even Doug has shown some interest in "production models" of some sort in the past...no?  But I do understand Doug's point, the forum is always a lot more fun when there is lively discussion about building something different or what tweaks to do.

Oh well, life goes on.

JD[/quote]



Wow,wow hold on there,I couldn't disagree more,people that shouldn't be here?,and how do you dictate that?,everybody has to start somehwere.
Now that was spoken trully form the perspective of someone that knows something that others don't.
I think that pople that loose interest will just fall by the wayside by themselves.
I have brough forth a couple of designs and specifically asked the comunity(meanning this forum) to help develop it cause first I don't have the chops and second because I thought that a true comunal effort would be the beginning os what so many here think should be the true nature of the beast,stop clonning and start designing something different albeit just another shade of distortion,but hey.....
Nobody cared,not the newbbies nor the gurus.
MAybe somebody should've told me that the idea was shite,I would've preffered that.The only one that showed interest was Fp that made a cad drawing of the idea.
In other words,it is easier to clone but this is after all a DIY forum not an inventors forum.
I say clone away,anybody,I don't care who.Now if later that person starts selling those pedals pretending it's their design,I see that as wrong.

Whay don't we set up a place where people submitt ideas and a bunch of the gurus choose a project for development as a comunity into which all can input ideas.Somebody builds a proto,records a sample and we all further tweak it,much like the Ax84 guys?.
Aharon

[Aharon]

I've realized for a while now, that my site has really done a disservice to the DIY community in this respect.  My good intentions to share the  layouts I drew up have led to some laziness in the community.  Maybe even bringing in people that should never have been here, "mud wrestling a pig" so to speak.  But, there is some good to be gotten for those who really are into DIY, cloning is not always evil.  Shoot, I think even Doug has shown some interest in "production models" of some sort in the past...no?  But I do understand Doug's point, the forum is always a lot more fun when there is lively discussion about building something different or what tweaks to do.

Oh well, life goes on.

JD[/quote]



Wow,wow hold on there,I couldn't disagree more,people that shouldn't be here?,and how do you dictate that?,everybody has to start somehwere.
Now that was spoken trully form the perspective of someone that knows something that others don't.
I think that pople that loose interest will just fall by the wayside by themselves.
I have brough forth a couple of designs and specifically asked the comunity(meanning this forum) to help develop it cause first I don't have the chops and second because I thought that a true comunal effort would be the beginning os what so many here think should be the true nature of the beast,stop clonning and start designing something different albeit just another shade of distortion,but hey.....
Nobody cared,not the newbbies nor the gurus.
MAybe somebody should've told me that the idea was shite,I would've preffered that.The only one that showed interest was Fp that made a cad drawing of the idea.
In other words,it is easier to clone but this is after all a DIY forum not an inventors forum.
I say clone away,anybody,I don't care who.Now if later that person starts selling those pedals pretending it's their design,I see that as wrong.

Whay don't we set up a place where people submitt ideas and a bunch of the gurus choose a project for development as a comunity into which all can input ideas.Somebody builds a proto,records a sample and we all further tweak it,much like the Ax84 guys?.
Aharon

[Doug H]

I've realized for a while now, that my site has really done a disservice to the DIY community in this respect.  My good intentions to share the  layouts I drew up have led to some laziness in the community.  Maybe even bringing in people that should never have been here, "mud wrestling a pig" so to speak.  But, there is some good to be gotten for those who really are into DIY, cloning is not always evil.  Shoot, I think even Doug has shown some interest in "production models" of some sort in the past...no?  But I do understand Doug's point, the forum is always a lot more fun when there is lively discussion about building something different or what tweaks to do.

Oh well, life goes on.

JD

JD, there is no way I would ever consider your site as "doing a disservice to the DIY community". No way. Not at all. On the contrary it has been a major inspiration to a large number of people to get involved in DIY, myself included. And if your site is a disservice mine is too. After all, I just put up a few schematics. I don't have any of the "how-to" design info that R.G., Jack, Aron, and others have put up.

We all learn and have learned from looking at established schematics. I don't feel that cloning is evil. It is a necessary part of the learning process.  My comments were based on how I felt the wind was blowing on a particular day here, nothing more and nothing less. I don't want anyone to take them too seriously.

When people want a schem for circuit X it's usually for 1 of 3 reasons: 1) They have one they need to repair, 2) They are curious about what's inside, what makes it "tick", what makes it better than something else that may be similar, or 3) They are put off by the high prices they demand, can't afford it, always wanted one and want to build one for themselves. All three of these reasons are valid as far as I'm concerned.

Sometimes it seems like there is more emphasis on 3) here, however. That concerns me a little because I don't want people to miss out on the rush of tweaking something for themself and eventually rolling their own.  I also don't want them to miss out on the even bigger rush of learning some of the concepts behind these ideas and applying them themselves. Once you start doing that, you can do just about anything.

Any of these schems, mine included, are just starting points to finding your sound, AFAIC. When we over-emphasize our love for "circuit X with the pink polka-dot cover that was manufactured before 1975 with the authentic Z29 discombobulator" we may be limiting our thought processes in a way to limit our potential to consider other methods and newer ideas. (Sorry for such a long sentence...) And this is just a big gray area AFAIC. There is no specific case that comes to mind, it's just generally where I feel the emphasis is at times that bugs me a little.

Doug

[jsleep]

Thanks for the kind words everyone.  If I had it to do all over again...I'd still do exactly the same thing I've done.  I just wanted to post my take on thoughts I've had in line, I think, with some of the thoughts that Doug H has.  I think the GEOFEX site is a very fine example of how to help the community without spoon feeding.

Paul,

Thanks for all the contributions you've made here and to my site!

Samuel,

I'm going to try to work on some things on my site to encourge more delving into experimenting and creating.  Thanks for the encouragement.


Aharan,

Yeah, the pig statement was a bit unwise of me.  I'm just trying to say that I do know of at least a couple guys that came down this path, blew a lot of money before they discovered that they weren't ready or just not cut out for the world of DIY.  I know that's not my fault, I should not have inferred that.

JD

[Aharon]

JD,I don't want you to take me wrong,maybe the way I took what you were trying to say.I've "known" you from the forum from way back and I know you did not mean any harm.
I think you are right,maybe we should have a chapter on how to ease into DIY without blowing your whole wad from the start without even knowing if you are cut out for it etc.
I was lucky,my transition was easy and painless and I owe this hobby to people like you ,Francisco,Aron,RG,Doug and a few others.

I have been participating a lot less lately,some of it has to do with me going more into the tube amp side of things,another reason is that (you are right here)painting by numbers got to be sort of (gasp) boring.
I guess I have to get that breadboard out and resurect a couple of my ideas and see if i can contribute something new,all in all I think that was what you meant in the first place.
Respectfully
Aharon

[Doug H]

I have brough forth a couple of designs and specifically asked the comunity(meanning this forum) to help develop it cause first I don't have the chops and second because I thought that a true comunal effort would be the beginning os what so many here think should be the true nature of the beast,stop clonning and start designing something different albeit just another shade of distortion,but hey.....
Nobody cared,not the newbbies nor the gurus.

Whay don't we set up a place where people submitt ideas and a bunch of the gurus choose a project for development as a comunity into which all can input ideas.Somebody builds a proto,records a sample and we all further tweak it,much like the Ax84 guys?.
Aharon

The biggest issue here is time. Everyone is on there own little trip and they generally don't have time to get involved in a totally communal effort. The way I have seen the communal effort work best is when people come up with ideas, bounce them off each other, and then everyone applies them to their own thing.

Even at ax84, most of the newest projects are one man shows. The Taz-Tweed is an example. Someone designs an amp and if everyone in the community likes it and feels it is unique enough, it gets posted as one of the "official" ax84 projects. So in that sense, there's really not a communal design happening.

At the same time, however, there are all kinds of cool ideas coming up all the time. Things like the combination fixed/cathode biasing using zeners, or the nfb-based gain control in the P2 get applied all over the place in people's personal projects. I see that kind of cross-pollination of ideas going on continuously, and it happens here as well.

Doug

[MarkB]

Not to pile it on, JD.. but I have to say 'nay'..
your site (as well as this one, Tonepad, etc) are a GREAT service to the DIY community..

I downloaded some schematics from Leper's years ago.. and tried to build a Big Muff.. and failed.. and gave up.

If it wasn't for this site (and yours, etc).. I'd have never tried again.  Now - I'm learning, but I'm nowhere NEAR at the point where I could design my own stuff (though maybe tweak an existing design... a little).. I'm still going through the build/clone/tweak phase...  Eventually, I'd like to create my own designs, but not until I have a much more thorough knowledge of circuit design.. which I'm gaining by cloning/building/tweaking with the help of sites like yours.

Never forget where we all started.. gotta walk before you can run.
"-)

[smoguzbenjamin]

I started when I was bored (laptop was out for repairs), so I got behind the old shitty PC and typed in something like "guitar effects" on google, and found GGG. JD you set me off man

I've learnt LOADS since I started out, I now know what a resistor does and a cap, and I'm a hot item right now in physics class as we're doing electricity now :twisted: But to the point: I think the Interweb is a huge resource for beginners. As mentioned before, people who lose interest will drop off themselves. I enjoyed the electronics/stompbox building community and I was allready into guitar effects so I stuck around. And here I am today

[jsleep]

Doug and Aharan,

I've yet to see any really fun Forum threads that weren't just spontaneous flings that hit the wind just right    , even on AX84.

BTW, this whole thread made me think back a while ago there was a thread started by Aron I think, it was something about posting corrections  and information about schematics that are on the net.  There seemed to be a lot of people on the forum at that time that didn't really care.  This is know as "the good old days".  Back then, not so many people concerned about just taking a schematic and building a clone.  It was part of the fun and learning experience to try to figure out what's wrong with the stinkin' factory schematic!  Of course back in the old days, we didn't have schematics, all we had was dirt, and we liked it.

JD

[Thomas P.]

When I started building effects I first came across GEO, which sure is a great site. But me as a beginner I wouldn't first read a ton of theory before getting started. What I was searching for was that fast success which - from my point of view - wasn't that good.
I started to solder a few parts together and nothing worked. After 3-4 failures I was ready to give it up. The only problem was: I couldn't!
So I started to rethink the whole mess and came to the conclution that I first have to understand at least a bit of what was going on there:
Now imagine you have to learn about complex analysis. Sure you have to read about the theory but what I think gives the most succsses in understanding is doing!
And where to start if not building a prooved project! You wouldn't create your own function to analyze either, would you? The point is that I learned a lot while cloning commercial stuff. One of it was that commercial pedals do have some limitations because they have to make money...

I don't see why cloning is a bad thing since at least everyone here started this way and if there are a guys who wont do the next step it's alright. Not everyone here is a EE or something like it and maybe most of them just like to build stuff. I mean if most of the people on this board are happy with cloning and therefor the 'inventional aspect' moves towards zero - well that's democracy no matter if it's wrong or right. How can anyone here say what the real way in diy is!

[Hal]

JD - I see where you're comming from, but you couldn't be more wrong.  I started out as a little loser who builds guitar effects becuase the ladies love it...and the only reason I got into it was becuase of the huge internet community and the support.  But now, I'm a bigger loser, who has his own breadboard, and a faint idea of how to design circuits, and am attempting to get into a graduate lab at Stony Brook University to do reasearch on semiconductors at low temperatures.  And this is all becuase of general guitar gadgets, Steve, and Aron.  

And while you learned from production models, I learned from these web pages.  Same thing.

[Aharon]

[
The biggest issue here is time. Everyone is on there own little trip and they generally don't have time to get involved in a totally communal effort. The way I have seen the communal effort work best is when people come up with ideas, bounce them off each other, and then everyone applies them to their own thing.

Even at ax84, most of the newest projects are one man shows. The Taz-Tweed is an example. Someone designs an amp and if everyone in the community likes it and feels it is unique enough, it gets posted as one of the "official" ax84 projects. So in that sense, there's really not a communal design happening.

At the same time, however, there are all kinds of cool ideas coming up all the time. Things like the combination fixed/cathode biasing using zeners, or the nfb-based gain control in the P2 get applied all over the place in people's personal projects. I see that kind of cross-pollination of ideas going on continuously, and it happens here as well.

Doug[/quote]


Yeah,I can see that being the case when you think about it.
Aharon

[BillyJ]

The Internet didn’t have all these helpful sites on pedal building and schematics when I started. I learned the old fashioned way. I reverse engineered pedals, I became friends with repair guys and techs that built pedals for large companies, and I read a lot of books!


Wait what is the difference again?
I just reversed engineered a pedal this week and the funny thing is it works!
I have made a LOT of friends here, some are repair guys, some techs that built pedals for large companies, and I read as much as time allows inbetween doing things.
I think we just have better resources.
Old fasioned isn't always the best ;O)
There many different reasons to want to build something.
Not everyone has to share the desire to become a great designer to build themselves a pedal.
So I say there is room for everyone.
Even people who want to look at old things that derive from the older things that derives from the older older things etc.
And in any event I think it was just said we could draw up any old schematic of any huge pedal and it would be cool.
Unless I read that wrong then we need to simply (har har) get some huge pedals and get crackin'!
Doing it yourself and engineering it yourself are different. I think JD has made a great contribution to the DIY world.
I do not think wew need to all aspire to the same thing to hang out and learn together. At least I hope not because I came here thnking I would build a couple pedals and be done.......
Anyway I don't think I am making any real point so nevermind[/quote]

[Hal]

The biggest issue here is time. Everyone is on there own little trip and they generally don't have time to get involved in a totally communal effort. The way I have seen the communal effort work best is when people come up with ideas, bounce them off each other, and then everyone applies them to their own thing.

I think thats a little different than with tube amps.  We can have a bunch of people modding a pedal design on breadboard, while you can't really do that with a tube amp...or maybe you can, but it would be much more expensive, complicated and scarry.  I wouldn't mind getting into this at some point...I just have to increase my stock greatly

[Doug H]

At least I hope not because I came here thnking I would build a couple pedals and be done.......

Ha ha! That's what I thought too!  Five years ago...

Of course back in the old days, we didn't have schematics, all we had was dirt, and we liked it.

I had a stick and a ball of string too. I was the envy of the neighborhood...

Doug

[Samuel]

all we had was dirt, and we liked it.

JD

Dirt?!? You had dirt?!?

[Hal]

yes.  They took dirt, extracted silicon, and built the first transistors and diodes.   And thus sparked the Effects Revolution.


that would make a good movie.

[Bill_F]

yes.  They took dirt, extracted silicon, and built the first transistors and diodes.   And thus sparked the Effects Revolution.

I like the old dirt better. No mojo in the new dirt.