How much is that little pedal in the window?

[petemoore]

   NO, the F I don't, Hammerman...and I can't count rounds that good anyway, I ain't no punk, and I Don't Feel Lucky.
  Anyone who thinks they do feel lucky could very well
A  Get Rich Super kwik [Odds estimated at approx. 1 in 23,098,624]
B  Run Off and Lick Wounds [very likely]
C  Have a date with Harry's handcannon near the Factory Cesspool [Hopefully it doesn't come to that].
  Hopefully someone who's absolutely certain Pedal Selling is their 'true route to glory', will use this as like a litnus test and get doubts...wayy better than sinkin' in a cesspool.
  If you're not certain about any details, there are those who are, very competitive...
  Remember this isn't the old days, where you could just go round the bend and find fresh green pastures w/babbling brook, and no man.
 

[Mark Hammer]

Hey, it's an art, right?  Some arteests  can end up living off their work, but a great many keep their day-job and continue to sell their art in a limited and sometimes intermittent fashion.  The money they make subsidizes their dreams, and provides enough encouragement and motivation to keep at it.  I see nothing wrong in that - would that EVERY hobby allowed for that.  The worst thing is to come to resent something you started out loving.  If you lean too heavily on something that can't support such pressures, that can happen.  If you lean as heavily as reason and finances permit, you can keep the love story going for a long long time.

[analogmike]

parts for one silicon PNP fuzz = 25
10/hr. 1 laborers, 1 hour (being very modest) for one built PNP fuzz = 10
+1 hour tailoring finished proto PNP fuzz = 30 (or 10 time in time deduction if you do it alone which most boutiquers do)
less sum: 65
misc. cost = 5
total = 70 a fuzz, approx. 80 germanium fuzz.  (keep in mind with 3 workers, plus overseer/builder himself{4total} 1 hour could produce 2-3 proto completed unfinished fuzzes however add half where minus expenditures taken due to material repurchase)
  Boutique asking for a PNP fuzz:  approx. 170-180.
Actual Approx. Price: 70
Less Profit: 90
Net Profit:  30
Earn 30 per pedal if 3 laborers working including self.
In a 3 labor environment.  Shelf rate would be 20 hours a week producing 60 pedals.  Average sell for company with 3 workers, 2 per day.   
60 multiplied by 7 business days is 420
If consistent, in 30 days, less profit: 12,600 (a month) divided by 4 is 3,150 each worker including self.
Subtract website maintenance and misc. 100 month.
Each head net profit: approx. 3,000
Not bad for a side business consisting of only 20 hours per week. 

This is way wrong... I have to sell 7 pedals a day just to cover operating costs, any less and I lose money that day. Where did you include rent, phone, advertising, trade shows, internet, salaries, credit card losses, local taxes and fees, supplies, toilet paper, beer? Also you will need to be online about 8 hours a day IN ADDITION to building the pedals, you have to add in 40 hours per week internet labor in addition to building time. Yes you can make money at this but it will take a few years to just break even.

[wampcat1]

parts for one silicon PNP fuzz = 25
10/hr. 1 laborers, 1 hour (being very modest) for one built PNP fuzz = 10
+1 hour tailoring finished proto PNP fuzz = 30 (or 10 time in time deduction if you do it alone which most boutiquers do)
less sum: 65
misc. cost = 5
total = 70 a fuzz, approx. 80 germanium fuzz.  (keep in mind with 3 workers, plus overseer/builder himself{4total} 1 hour could produce 2-3 proto completed unfinished fuzzes however add half where minus expenditures taken due to material repurchase)
  Boutique asking for a PNP fuzz:  approx. 170-180.
Actual Approx. Price: 70
Less Profit: 90
Net Profit:  30
Earn 30 per pedal if 3 laborers working including self.
In a 3 labor environment.  Shelf rate would be 20 hours a week producing 60 pedals.  Average sell for company with 3 workers, 2 per day.   
60 multiplied by 7 business days is 420
If consistent, in 30 days, less profit: 12,600 (a month) divided by 4 is 3,150 each worker including self.
Subtract website maintenance and misc. 100 month.
Each head net profit: approx. 3,000
Not bad for a side business consisting of only 20 hours per week. 

This is way wrong... I have to sell 7 pedals a day just to cover operating costs, any less and I lose money that day. Where did you include rent, phone, advertising, trade shows, internet, salaries, credit card losses, local taxes and fees, supplies, toilet paper, beer? Also you will need to be online about 8 hours a day IN ADDITION to building the pedals, you have to add in 40 hours per week internet labor in addition to building time. Yes you can make money at this but it will take a few years to just break even.

That's a good point Mike -- just ANSWERING email can be nearly a full time freaking job!! 

In retrospect, there are much easier ways to make more money, but this IS the one thing that allows me to be a stay at home Dad, which is the most important thing to me. Who knows...this is the last summer before my son is in the 1st grade, so I may OR may not still be doing this full-time.

Looking back, probably the best thing I did was to make sure I had multiple income streams. That way, when one source slowed down, I wouldn't get stressed out.

Take care,
Brian

[Mark Hammer]

That's a good point Mike -- just ANSWERING email can be nearly a full time freaking job!! 

Steve Daniels can tell you ALL about that.

In retrospect, there are much easier ways to make more money, but this IS the one thing that allows me to be a stay at home Dad, which is the most important thing to me. Who knows...this is the last summer before my son is in the 1st grade, so I may OR may not still be doing this full-time.

Looking back, probably the best thing I did was to make sure I had multiple income streams. That way, when one source slowed down, I wouldn't get stressed out.

The stay at home aspect is core to a variety of career choices that people make.  Working out of one's home, however, requires a number of ducks to be lined up.  Among them are self-discipline, an assured stability of residence, and few unnecessary interruptions.  Brian may find, in a year or two that he'll be asked to provide help about homework, right in the middle of doing something critical.  The solution will either be loads of spousal backup, or a "secure" work environment that others can't enter without your cooperation, or working away from home, or some other workaround (one of which might be giving it up).

One of the nice things about the after-market mod business, as opposed to the boutique pedal business is that the customer has bought the brunt of the inventory already.  I realize there is an investment in components, workbench tools, etc., but at least you don't get stuck with 238 fully machined Hammond 1590BBs that you can't use for anything else and can't return, or 192 reverse-log 250k pots, or 500 legended plate-through PCBs...and the obligation to get rid of them.  If one has excellent connection to regional musicians or a good relationship with a local or other store that is willing to push your products, then whole pedals might work out as a business but, in the absence of those, after-market mods are likely to be a safer bet as a business in parallel to whatever else one does for revenue. 

Dave Stephens, who posts regularly on Ampage, has a primary gig as a graphics illustrator, doing poster and album art.  He also has a solid reputation as a pickup builder (even got written up in Vintage Guitar).  The pickup thing is something he devotes himself to heart-wise, but not necessarily time-wise.  Fortunately, the overhead is pretty low.  One may need a wide assortment of passive and active components to develop and make pedals, but the same roll of #42 wire can be used for a wide range of pickup products.  There is clearly more to it than a roll of wire, but the point is that he has very modest overhead costs in terms of inventory, which makes the business sustainable.  Just think about what Bill Finnegan or Roger Mayer had to shell out for those distinctive cast chassis they use in their products.

It's not the sort of question you want to ask yourself, but it is the question you need to ask:  What is there a risk of me being stuck with, either in terms of paid-off inventory, or in terms of commercial obligations to others?

[rockgardenlove]

Doesn't work...if you want I can rehost it, I have a decent PHP server...and my site needs some content.  I can give full credit etc...

[nunocaldeira]

Can´t see

[Peter Snowberg]

Sorry, that calculatror link is a couple years old. The code is in storage right now, but I'll re-post it in the next couple months.

[Roland]

Well my last post didn't make it..oh well. I just got to say analog mike is right on the mark! Listen to him he knows what he is talking about....VRooommm I've been building effects for a long time and I don't drive no lambo or ferrarri.. More like 75 ford halfton.

[moosapotamus]

I heard Z drives a Miata... I wonder how many soldering irons he owns?

~ Charlie

[johngreene]

This is way wrong... I have to sell 7 pedals a day just to cover operating costs, any less and I lose money that day. Where did you include rent, phone, advertising, trade shows, internet, salaries, credit card losses, local taxes and fees, supplies, toilet paper, beer? Also you will need to be online about 8 hours a day IN ADDITION to building the pedals, you have to add in 40 hours per week internet labor in addition to building time. Yes you can make money at this but it will take a few years to just break even.

mmmmmm. beer.

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Mark H is spot on.. I have about $10K of (populated) SMD boards from an abandoned project that went tits up  (long boring story).. that is THREE YEARS worth of food, for me.
I try not to do that very often.

[squidsquad]

Great topic...as I'm sure many entertain the fantasy at some point in this hobby.  And the wise words are read with relish.  Mark's writing always entrance me...and sends me OT:

I get to work alongside many *stars*.  Met & spoke w/George Clooney, Martin Sheen knows me....but Clint!
I was one of hundreds of soldiers as they were filming FLAGS OF OUR FATHERS.  Two nights...long hours...
he was only 10 feet away...directing.  Top o' the food chain baby!   Yeah...I was starstruck!

And that's what I gotta do...so I can be a part-time rock star.

One day:  on stage, in a spotlight, w/hundreds cheering.
The next:  a nameless peron in the background of a big movie...making minimum wage....getting a free lunch.  A tad insane... but keeps ya humble...heheeeee!

Yep...multiple income streams....that's the ticket....allows you to follow your bliss.

[tommy.genes]

I have about $10K of (populated) SMD boards from an abandoned project that went tits up 

You should make a few available to the members of this forum. I'm sure somebody here could come up with a creative (alternative) use for 'em. I'm not talking about me necessarily, but some of the other guys...

-- T. G. --

[puretube]

I can imagine, the original thing already is very creative...

[sonic66]

Look , what is it you want from a pedal anyway?

lets talk about lifecycle here....

it goes from teen got to have it to collector got to have it ........ but wheres the mean. the average the bread n butter.

everyones out there buying ipods and dvd's, who actually owns tools anymore..... ( don't answer that)

Lyfestyle is everything, as for capitalism it will turn into communisim  or somithing but what people are doing here is somewhat similar 

sharing 'useless and pointless knowledge' aka Dylan

but then nobody wants to buy whats in the box they just want the box the form of function , who cares how its done sell me the magic.


On this forum the pedals are free, but the labour costs.... the more you want it now the more it costs


i'm sure many of you have built stuff for friends and not charged them a brass razzoo, but if they expected you to have it all ready and avaliable for you when they asked, well thats a customer.

I hope this forum isnt going down that line ( not that it show s any sign of that)..... its great that there are some  many new members.... me included i guess,

but when will it be swamped out of existance ..... hopefully it will evolve ..... in which case you can sell more pedals or diy pedal kits / mods.


All comes down to personal relationships...even in the mire of the buisness world.


Basically the whole guitar amp pedal thing is a mature thing.... see a recent post about what will happen in ten years  i think also by Peter.

Tell me what it is you ( the public at large) think will  profoundly change the scene..... its sure not putting holes in speakers to get a buzzy sound.



In the end its got to be about how you play the guitar / bass Hendrix clapton etc

to be honest someone should have a poll about who / what player inspired you to go buy that stompbox..... ( though i thinks been done already)

I cant imagine any intelligent answers ( from guitarists not engineers that is).

For me its always been about who i played with and the way they played.



The  goal really is for creative people / crafts people / artists to evolve / survive in a mass produced world.

bottom line is small buisnesses do it tough.


but then again don't be fooled into thinkinking  that  you can live without pizza.


from what i've seen its the obsessive types that once they get a taste for it  dont want to give it up.


but this whole elctronic music thing... that is what it is  may just take a while to develop.


Perhaps if we could all sit around in a few hundred years and see where its at  there may well be the hint of a renassance in a few hundred years after that.



Tell that to your congressman.


boomshanka. ;-) ( tounge firmly or not in cheek)


Sonic66

[Mark Hammer]

a) Anyone can drive any car they want (Miata or other), but owning it outright is another thing.  I'm not imputing anyone here, least of all Z,  but just don't make assumptions about anyone's REAL long-term sustainable revenue based on whatever potential revenue they are able to hoodwink others into believing lies down the road, be they back managers, landlords, car dealers, parts suppliers or even spouses.  That should be a rule of thumb in all walks of life, not just pedal-making.

b) I tried to start a forum at Ampage on the boutique business, expressly so that discussions like this could occur.  That particular forum never took off (sum total of postings is less than just this single thread), despite what struck me as a real need to occasionally talk about the business side of things.  I'm pleased to see that the business-decision/logic side does crop up here from time to time.  I suppose maybe it shouldn't be thought of as separate from the actual act of making a pedal for commercial purposes.

c) The idea of having both Clint Eastwood AND Howard Kaylan for "bosses" is a little disorienting, though I suppose any creative art has its meticulous little details that need to be attended to.

d) The idea of someone as creative as Paul getting stuck with that much useless inventory is heartbreaking.  It's like finding out that Henry Moore ordered the wrong bloody nonrefundable hunk of marble and will have to work a paper route to pay it off.  Yuck!!  No way we can help with this?

e) As has been reiterated and articulated by many: never confuse making a pedal for a friend who pays you for your trouble with running a business.  And never confuse running a cottage industry with running a viable business that can pay the bills.  Thank God and good judgment, Steve Daniels is making a solid go of Small Bear.  Wisely, however, he stalled for the longest time at turning to it as his primary income until he was persuaded by someone older that, yes, he really DID have a viable business.

f) "Yep...multiple income streams....that's the ticket....allows you to follow your bliss."  That's why my hero is Charles Ives.  Here is a frigging genius composer who realized that being an avant garde composer is not likely to pay the bills for his wife and 5 kids.  So what does he do?  He founded Mutual of New York Insurance, becomes one of the great life insurance minds of the 20th century, and composes on the side.  Well, actually he composes at work, then runs home and transcribes what he did mentally while looking over the ledgers.  Again, the secret is to not paint yourself into a corner that makes you hate what you used to love because it punishes you for loving it so much.

[analogmike]

f) "Yep...multiple income streams....that's the ticket....allows you to follow your bliss."  That's why my hero is Charles Ives.  Here is a frigging genius composer who realized that being an avant garde composer is not likely to pay the bills for his wife and 5 kids.  So what does he do?  He founded Mutual of New York Insurance, becomes one of the great life insurance minds of the 20th century, and composes on the side.  Well, actually he composes at work, then runs home and transcribes what he did mentally while looking over the ledgers.  Again, the secret is to not paint yourself into a corner that makes you hate what you used to love because it punishes you for loving it so much.

That is cool! I live in his hometown of Danbury CT and did not know that.

I feel sorry for many of the amazing musicians and artists I work with, who just can't make a decent living in music. One of the best guiarists in the USA who tours all over lives in a trailer park though he has $30K of guitar equipment on the road with him.

[wampcat1]

f) "Yep...multiple income streams....that's the ticket....allows you to follow your bliss."  That's why my hero is Charles Ives.  Here is a frigging genius composer who realized that being an avant garde composer is not likely to pay the bills for his wife and 5 kids.  So what does he do?  He founded Mutual of New York Insurance, becomes one of the great life insurance minds of the 20th century, and composes on the side.  Well, actually he composes at work, then runs home and transcribes what he did mentally while looking over the ledgers.  Again, the secret is to not paint yourself into a corner that makes you hate what you used to love because it punishes you for loving it so much.

That is cool! I live in his hometown of Danbury CT and did not know that.

I feel sorry for many of the amazing musicians and artists I work with, who just can't make a decent living in music. One of the best guiarists in the USA who tours all over lives in a trailer park though he has $30K of guitar equipment on the road with him.

Very true! It's really quite sad...media paints a very rosy picture of the 'musician' lifestyle it seems. There are a VERY few individuals that actually do make very good money, but for the most part, I know ALOT of 'full time' band members living in sect 8 housing and using food stamps to feed their kids! 

Otoh, I know other musicians who are blessed to have a wife/girlfriend/s.o. with a great job who supports them! 

Brian

[Mark Hammer]

That is cool! I live in his hometown of Danbury CT and did not know that.

Do yourself a favour and read a biography of the guy.  And if you have the time, read his book "Essays before a Sonata".  Brilliant and inspiring.  I bet you didn't know his dad (a bandleader during the Civil War, and local music instructor/bandleader during the post-war years) built a quarter-tone piano and taught young Charles and his siblings to sing in quarter tones.  He was also doing reverberation experiments in the 1880's. 

Much of Ives' catalog was never heard by Ives himself.  He would hire New York "session musicians" to come to his home after work and play the scores he would set out before them, but most found his poly-rhythms too difficult - it wasn't enough like Brahms.  He'd stick the stuff back in the safe.  If I'm not mistaken, one of the pieces he eventually won a Pulitzer Prize for decades later, was sitting in the company safe, when his M.O.N.Y. partner Sidney-somebody found it and showed it to Ives, who commented that it was rather good!  With his M.O.N.Y. earnings, he was able to subsidize the publishing of several new music journals, and also paid for the publishing of a number of other notable American composers, like John Cage and Lou Harrison.  He was like a UNESCO of modern American music.  You can probably find out more here: http://musicmavericks.publicradio.org/

I don't know what Danbury is like today, but the "Fourth of July" symphony by Ives is meant to mimic the sound of 3 or 4 local town marching bands (such as his dad used to tutor) all approaching the Danbury town square simultaneously on that most joyous of federal holidays, all playing different traditional tunes badly.  Even if it's not your taste in music, you may get a kick out of it.  Best listened to these days, I suppose, as an MP3 while standing in the place itself.