Can I try again please?

[BillyJ]

I lost my cool with that picture thread because I think what is really in question is the ethics but some were using supposed laws to back up that emotion.
I think passing on the idea from an ethics standpoint is fine and dandy.
The waters around the ethics thing is very murky around here to do anything but.
But....to argue that I cannot have a picture of my pedals really pisses me off.
Why? Because it sounds like complete nonsense to me. It really does.
It sucks Peter that your friend the lawyer can make a living IF what he does is things like suing people owning pictures of their own pedals.
That is vulture like!
I hope all the pedal makers out there feel their precious little circuits are safe and well protected while real freedowms go bye bye.  :cry:

Oh yeah I have picture of my car under the hood but I am told I can no longer show it to anyone anymore.  :wink:

If it isn't nonsense it should be!!  

Sorry to dredge it up but I went to modify my initial comments and found it locked probably due to my lack of cool.
I do feel I have the right to edify myself and actions.
If I am doing more damage by bringing it back up I appologies and please lock this and I please accept my appolgy.  :oops:

[travissk]

I have to claim a little bit of ignorance on the previous thread, since I didn't follow it all the way through, but I think everyone can understand both sides to the issue. From a hobbyist's perspective, yes, it sucks that we can't get some easy information. From a pedal builder's perspective, it would be nice to stick the circuit inside a box that makes everything explode when you open it up to take a peek.

I can get a picture of your car under the hood too - and with it I can get detailed parts descriptions, measurements, and placing diagrams - by simply buying a service manual. I doubt that information will ever really be in jeopardy since everyone needs their cars repaired from time to time, but the firmware for an in-dash GPS system is another story. There's too much proprietary technology at risk there.

The reverse-engineering of many technologies, including consumer devices and software, is a major industry, and sometimes steps are taken to protect the company that uses the information that was obtained in bad ethics - for example, it might not be against a licensing agreement to reverse-engineer software, so you pay another group to do it and give your team of programmers a report of some of the juicy details, and you're legally in the clear, or at least far enough on the fringe of that gray area.

I'm not in the industry (yet), so I can't say how common this practice is, but I know there are a variety of firms you can pay to dissect your competitor's device and give you a hefty report on how it works. It might be frowned upon, but as far as I know it's a really common thing.

That said, I think we usually err on the side of caution and good ethics. I firmly believe that if a pedal is in commercial production, especially if it's by a member of this community, we should respect the wishes of the creator and avoid posting pictures unless explicit permission is granted in advance.

I'd like to see photos of anything possible; like many people I request every schem, even if I don't have any plans to build them there's something to learn. That said, I can certainly understand if this good idea never comes to light.

Maybe this should have gone in the other thread

[BillyJ]

It should have gone to that thread but I boned it badly.  :oops:

With the ethics set aside I just take great issue with the law issue.
If there is a such a law I think there should not be one.
I really dislike that the legal system is so screwed up that you can't even be sure if your breaking the law or not!
That is what gets my goat. It would be one thing if it was cut and dry.
Peter has a friend who is an IP lawyer and I don't think even Peter can say for sure how and what law applies.
I just dislike bad laws that hurt more than help and I think ths is one of them.

[Mr.Huge]

Wow, cool topic. Unfortunately, it doesn’t really help you create cool pedals.

Here’s some poop from a guy who’s been in the music industry (product development) for over 10 years…

R&D = Rob and Duplicate

Ethics and morality are things people choose to practice. It’s learned behavior. It’s not something that is innately part of a persons genetic makeup. Kind of like religion.

Anyway, I’ve talked to a number of attorneys (IP, copyright, trademark) including my wife.
There are no hard a true rules about posting pictures of your personal property. If a large company felt that there was IP in how and where they place components on a PCB and you posted a picture of it, they could come after you. The bottom line is, how risk avers are you? Are you willing to defend yourself?
Can you afford to? Now that is the real question.
-Mr. Huge

[BillyJ]

The real question to me, the ethical one, is are laws like this the real crime?

Should I have to be able to afford to defend myself over a picture?

Do such laws protect real people in a real way or just open them up to being a victim of the laws???

You are correct it does not help to create cool pedals....

In fact how cool is a pedal that just sits there and does nothing?
Not very.....(The joke answer is ask a Swollen Pickle as who the hell would dare play one if they had it....."Do you have any idea what this is worht!? I can't PLAY with this!!"....sick but I bet it happens.
So I think I'll make haste to play some music before a lame law gets passed sez I can't.


"Uh...had a slight weapons malfunction. But, uh, everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here...now...thank you. How are you? *wince*"

[Peter Snowberg]

There are two issues here.... The first is the ethics one, and the second is purely legal.

The ethics one is somewhat "funny" because the base for it is a little neblous, but it's pretty consistant. Out of respect some schematics are not posted here. When it comes to small companies and individuals, there is much more reluctance to post their work than there is for a big faceless consumer electronics company where the engineers receive a salary and will never see a dime in royalties from their engineering.

The basic ethos of the DIY community seems to be that if a pedal is known to be gone and the maker has not requested otherwise, somebody will post the schematic or a schematic they've drawn up themselves, and then the new layouts start to appear.

Now on the legal side.....

Billy, I'm not using laws to back up emotion. I didn't write the laws. I have a very love/hate relationship with IP in general, but that doesn't change the world I live in.

You can find the copyright laws under U.S. Title 17. These laws define a number of very specific circumstances and a whole bunch of different legal positions and requirements depending on the date of the work and how the creator dealt with protection.

The term for being able to reproduce copyrighted work without infringement is called "fair use" and it is covered in chapter 1, section 107. Section 107 only applies as long as certain tests are passed.

Nobody ever said you couldn't take a picture of your pedals. As the owner of a something, this is covered in the law. The problem occurs when you suddenly go from taking a picture to distributing a picture.

I can buy a DVD and watch it with a video camera trained on the screen. As the owner of that disc, this is my right. Now if I post MPEGs of that tape on a website, what do you think the studio would do? You can bet they won't be happy.

I can also make a backup of a CD I buy. If I suddenly offer this backup over the internet, the RIAA may nail me to the wall.

My friend works for a pharmaceutical company. Let's not even go there ok? That's a world I have major problems with the evilness of, but it's his life not mine. He doesn't deal with charges against individuals.

I'm no lawyer, and I never will be one (thankfully!), but from all the copyright law I've read and all the research I've done in my 16 or so years of product development and several years as a performing projection artist, copyright law defines three circumstances. The first is "definite lack of infringement", the second is "definite infringement", and the third is "it's up to how much you can pay a lawyer".

Pictures of layouts could be considered to include trade secrets (component placement, etc.) so they sit in that third category. If a claim is made that the picture posting did not fall under "fair use" guidelines, you could find yourself liable for a claim of lost sales from the pedal originator. That can be BIG $$$$$$.

Mr. Huge summed it up very nicely in his post.

Anyway, I’ve talked to a number of attorneys (IP, copyright, trademark) including my wife.
There are no hard a true rules about posting pictures of your personal property. If a large company felt that there was IP in how and where they place components on a PCB and you posted a picture of it, they could come after you. The bottom line is, how risk avers are you? Are you willing to defend yourself?
Can you afford to? Now that is the real question.

"Can you afford to?" is the bottom line.

I'm really glad you responded with this new thread. As long as things remain mellow, it's going to stay and be open for everybody’s input. Archiving threads is very rare here and unlike most forums, posts are almost never deleted. I will now unlock the old thread so you can edit what you wanted to. I just request that you wipe the 18th century English legal acronym so that we all look better. The choice is up to you though.

Take care,
-Peter

Yoda- "Dangering and Disturbing this puzzle is"
Yoda- "Try not! Do, or do not, there is no try"
Han Solo- "Fly casual"

[BillyJ]

Naw pretty much I hate a stupid law and I think the whole owning ideas is cave man thinking for sure but your right there are those that own the world and then the rest of us who just simply live in it.
It is a stupid law!
I do wish your intial post was fleshed out like this one.
I can eat a poopy tasting law but only if it is served up right.
Served up cold and raw and it gets a gut reaction.
But for the record your examples aren't quite in the same field imho.
You speak of making almost exact copies or relative working fascimilies.
You did not mention the example of say a picture of your CD?
A picture of a CD should be a more accurate example of what we are talking about, no?
After all a picture of a pedal isn't going to do anything if you plug it in.
A picture of a CD isn't going to play very well.
Skip it though.
The law is made up by crooks for crooks. This is obviously a subject I need to avoid in the future just like some from the past.
Just too much BS to contain any fun and so I can't give it any more energy.
Thanks for opening up the thread I really messed up and I am sorry for that.
I know no picture library would ever happen and I should have moved on from that understanding. Oh well live and learn and grow.

RUNE: We have them on the run, sir... they're no match for destroyer droids.
NUTE: Yes, my Lord, we have taken over the last pockets of primitive life forms. We are in complete control of the planet now.
LUKE: You mean it controls your actions?
VADER: I want to know what happened to the plans they sent you.
BEN: Destroyed... by the Empire!
 :lol: