Feeling utterly violated...

[Impaler]

I was going thru some of the stuff I don't use anymore due to necessity and I came abross an EDB Direct Box I bought about 2 years ago. Seeing that I mic my 4x12 now, I figgered I'd crack it open and see what I paid $40 for...  :oops: Now I'm rather enraged and embarassed at the same time when I only find a small transformer, 2 cheap jacks, an XLR jack and a switch. Hell, I have all that around from salvaging. Essentially I paid for 6 bucks in parts and 34 for the enclosure. Just goes to the old addage, buyer beware...

[smoguzbenjamin]

Wow. That sucks. It's the same with many amp channel switchers. They cost loads when you buy them and are only a jack, enclosure and a switch. But you can make that yourself now can't you

[Doug H]

I don't think that's a bad price when you consider the labor and "R&D" (miniscule as it may be), as well as overhead and etc it takes to produce something like this. I suspect it's more than $6 worth of parts, esp if it's in a decent box.

Doug

[smoguzbenjamin]

True... But still $40 is a little over the top if you ask me. I can concieve the idea, buy parts and finish one in an afternoon... So why doesn't everyone give me $40 for my direct box?

[Doug H]

True... But still $40 is a little over the top if you ask me. I can concieve the idea, buy parts and finish one in an afternoon... So why doesn't everyone give me $40 for my direct box?

This probably needs to be added to the FAQ.

Here are some reference threads on the subject:

http://www.diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?t=14742&highlight=building+boutique+boxes

http://www.diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?t=18780&highlight=window

http://www.diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?t=17045&highlight=cost+business

http://www.diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?t=5162&highlight=cost+business (scroll down to R.G.'s post)

http://www.diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?t=16429&highlight=cost+business (scroll down to Peter's post)


These are just a few threads on this subject. This has been debated ad nauseum in the 5yrs I've been involved in this on the web discussion groups.

Doug

[smoguzbenjamin]

Hmm. That opened a world of info. Economies of scale... yeah we were doing that in economics class a while ago. Now it's painfully obvious

[Paul Marossy]

Yep, that's all there is to a Direct Box. For the average musician, they have no idea how simple a cicuit it is or how cheap all the parts are to put one together. You are really paying for a little bit of labor and mostly the mark up by the dealer, which is probably 200%.

[Ed G.]

I really don't see how people like fulltone and Z.Vex can stay in business. People look at the boxes and wonder why it costs so much for a 10 buck box and about 10 bucks in parts, but you have to factor in all the expenses it takes to run a business. that includes labor, electricity, rent, etc... those costs have to be distributed into every box sold. Economies of scale do help, but the bigger the company is, then the more overhead you have, so the amount of money you save on each unit has to go towards overhead.

[Ansil]

i understand about the overhead and such, but to me if i can build it for 29 dollars counting my time adn sell it for 100 or 90 to the dealer ifhe buyd several.  then i have made the standard rule of 3.   why shoudl i sell it to someone for 200$ just because the will buy it. hmm maybe i just need to build the stuf and have someone else market it.

i always thought it was about tone and quality product and then making money.

[smoguzbenjamin]

To a boutique builder yes, but do you think BOSS really cares about craftsmanship that much? They're going to have an engineer pull up a schem first, then if it sounds good enough build it like crazy. There's gonna be 100 guys on an assembly line building hundreds of pedals a day, and they'll go home and at the end of the year they'll have made enough money doing that to sustain themselves and their families.

But I like BOSS pedals because they are cheap, and most of them sound OK.

[Doug H]

i understand about the overhead and such, but to me if i can build it for 29 dollars counting my time adn sell it for 100 or 90 to the dealer ifhe buyd several.  then i have made the standard rule of 3.   why shoudl i sell it to someone for 200$ just because the will buy it.

It's the dealer/distributor who turns around and sells it for $200. He has to eat too.

Doug

[Ansil]

i understand about the overhead and such, but to me if i can build it for 29 dollars counting my time adn sell it for 100 or 90 to the dealer ifhe buyd several.  then i have made the standard rule of 3.   why shoudl i sell it to someone for 200$ just because the will buy it.

It's the dealer/distributor who turns around and sells it for $200. He has to eat too. :D

Doug

mine only sells them for around 150$  since he gets them at the 90 dollar price.. and my very first music store to help me out selling them gets thelm for a special price since he was the first to buy some out right. and he sells them for 120 dollars..

[R.G.]

Guys, have any of you read the Guitar Effects FAQ at GEO? The section on Effects Ecomomics? That was in the first edition of the FAQ back in '94.

[Doug H]

Guys, have any of you read the Guitar Effects FAQ at GEO? The section on Effects Ecomomics?

Many times... Kind of the inside-out story of the point I was originally trying to make.

Doug

[Nasse]

:? Time is money. Sometimes you dont have time to do-it-yourself all stuff you need, so that is nicely put in a case and is reliable and nice looking. And hunting for cheapest parts takes time, at least for me. And finding good transformer cheap is sometimes difficult, if impossible. Just my humble opinion. But money is just paper and metal...

[Peter Snowberg]

I plugged a couple numbers into my projection calculator and the resulting graph help to fill the picture in a bit more.

Also, in these discussions I don't see people talking about taxes very much or even at all so don't forget that Uncle Spam is a HUGE cost in doing business.

Check this web-based utility out
It wants a full 1024 by 768 screen but will work in smaller windows with some squishing.

Graph for $8 production cost
(be sure to use the correct tax rate for your situation!)

If you can sell 500 units a month....  Now imagine what kind of overhead it takes to support 500 units per month.

It's a lot harder to run a business that most people realize.

Take care,
-Peter

[runmikeyrun]

Think of it this way:  when you go to get heart surgery the surgeon might use a couple of thousand dollars in supplies (scalpels, anesthesia, etc) but the surgery costs you $50,000.  The remainder after supplies goes to the surgical assistants, hospital costs, etc but most of it goes towards the knowledge that the surgeon has.

Same with f/x building:  Sure everyone can build a fuzz face, and A/B box, or a bazz fuss.  But someone had to come up with those ideas in the first place.  

Think about it this way?  If you were building f/x that cost you $25 in parts but took you 3 hours to build, along with $100 in tools to build it with, plus all the time it took you to gain the experience to build it, all the excuses you gave to your wife who has called you to dinner for the 4th time, would YOU sell that box for $25?  $40?  $50  Sure that would be reallllly nice of you, but would you do it?  Beyond that, imagine renting a building, paying employees, paying heat, water, and electric bills, etc...

From that perspective, you might start to understand how things end up getting their price tag.

[Hal]

i hate to say it, but thats the beauty of capitalism.  Now, you probably wouldn't buy it.  Or maybe you might.  But there are plenty of people who think that $40 is an AMAZING deal for a DI box.  And therefore it sells.

[GuitarLord5000]

Check out Ansil's tutorial for the Total Sonic Annihilation box:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?t=18137
I did some research on this product and found out that it was selling for $150 per unit.  Plus $30 per mod (such as a volume control)!!!!  Now, looking at the parts list, I really got ticked off.  It's nothing but a feedback looper!  It doesn't even do anything on its own, you've got to have other FX boxes to make it do anything!
However, after reading some of the reviews for this effect, I realized why it costs so much.  People were fanatical about this "effect"!  I saw one review where a guy said he would gladly pay "twice the amount" for his TSA, and 4 or 5 people agreed.  
Supply and demand.  It's what keeps business running.  The only thing I dont understand is why toilet paper isn't $5 per roll yet.

[Paul Marossy]

OK, I can buy into the labor thing, but how much human labor is really involved in these things anymore? (I'm talking about companies like BOSS)

It seems like manufacturers are always trying to find ways to reduce their work force, and the real human beings at the plant are expected to wear too many hats for the pay they receive. I'm sure most of these production facilities use automated systems these days. The bulk of the costs to me would seem to be in materials and mostly the systems which actually do all of the work, the computer programing, etc.