How much is your tone worth??

[1wahfreak]

I have been thinking about this question for a few days now and when R.G. brought up the topic of reliability I thought it may be a good time to ask.
I've been agonizing over buying an amp for a while now. I don't want to settle for something cheap because "generally" in the scheme of things, you get what you pay for. I must have played over 50 amps in the last few months. So I've had to ask myself, what is my tone worth?
$600.00, $1000.00, $2000.00, $3000.00, $10000.00?? I've played the $600.00 Peavy's and the $3000.00 Bogner's and Fuchs ODS. If I think from a pure artist point of view, money should be no object. The entire basis of music is the relationship of one sound to another. So, as a creator of sound I should spare no expense at creating it right? But then reality (my wife) sets in and says I can only afford so much. Does the $3000.00 Bogner sound that much better than the $600.00 Peavy? Absolutley, at least to my ears. But is it really worth it? Am I cheating myself if I don't get the Bogner or the latest boo-teek widgit?
This does not just end at amps either. What about guitars, cords or even strings and effects. There is a guy at work who contiunally buys $300.00 guitars (I think he has about 15 now) but he is always complaining about them. They never stay in tune, the intonation is off, the bridge saddles suck, the necks continually warp and change at the slightest change in temp or humidity etc. I think to myself why not buy 2 or 3 really good ones instead? Strings is another good example. When I see a price tag of $12.00 for a set of Elixers, I freak. I think "this is rediculous". But is it? I'm so worried about an extra $6.00 that I don't even think that the strings are the very thing that starts the whole chain of sound in the first place.
I'm sure we have all been playing guitar for some time and we've spent a ton of money on the latest and greatest stuff, but in a lot of instances I wonder if I sould have saved my money and bought the Lexicon or or the
Anyhow, just thinking out loud and trying to get it straight in my head about what is right for me. May it's just a series of compromises. But where should I compromise???  Thoughts anyone???

[Mike Burgundy]

quality is essential, but don't go overboard.
Don't buy boutique stuff unless you can both really hear the difference (seriously!!) and can afford it. Don't buy above your standard (I really feel a young punckrock guitarist wielding a PRS looks slightly idiotic). Instead, buy what you NEED, and don't skimp on that. So no dirt-cheap cords (but not $10 per meter), no budget/practice amps (but probably not a Matchless either), no second-hand bargain-bin bits of scrapwood with pickups on (but no custom-ordered DragonIII either).

If you think about it, you will know where I'm going with this.
Get stuff you can actually trust, and can work with. Search for tone, and quality but don't sacrifice everything to get that last tenth of a percent. The difference between a very good but affordable setup and a slightly-better (..sounding, mostly) high-end boutique setup runs into the thousands of dollars. Any piece of gear breaks down on tour if youre not very careful though, or simply does, no matter what.
Buy the decadent stuff later. Now, get what works for you, and will keep doing so within real boundaries. It NEEDS to work, but it doesn't need gold plating to do so.

point in case:
I just treated myself to a Tobias 5-string bass. Very well built, neck through, nice woods, great sound and great playability. Durable too, as far as I can see. Sure, I'd like a $4000,- plus MTD (the man does deserve the business), but it wouldn't complement my playing, it would actually, if anything, *hurt* my image (look at THAT poser), and it would rather hinder me at gigs  - I'd be worried where my bass that I could live a year on was, if it was safe, and wonder why people were pointing at my bass more than listening to my playing.
I now have great quality at a realistic price, this bass will keep me happy for years and years to come. And I'm not afraid to use it.

Edit:
Cheap guitars have a charm all of their own, and most of them can actually get quite good (as long as wood and construction is good enough) with a good bit of TLC. They also often have a very personal, distinctive feel and sound. This is another subject, though.
$12 for a set of elixirs and you're complaining? Cheapest I can get is E15, most stores charge E20... Don't ask what a 5str. bass set goes for ;(

[Aharon]

After a certain price range all you are doing is paying for name and frills(oh...and bragging rights).
I built myself a Matchless Spitfire for a total of $150 if that much.
Aharon

[Bucksears]

I'm sure there is a minimum quality standard, that if we all sat around and put our heads together, we could come up with the least quality gear we would allow ourselves to play and yet be happy with the sound.
Personally, I'm looking at that $699 Peavey Classic 50 as my next amp. As I haven't had an amp since early December, IMHO it really depends on your circumstances. I could go out and pick up a solid state single-speaker amp and have something to play through, but it's not what I want. I'd rather hold out for the Peavey.
I think we reach an equilibrium and that's where we play: our money is on one side, our desire/taste is on the other. You have a little 'guitar summit' in your head and that's where your decisions come from. I think this is more of an overal theory.
But it all boils down to YOU. Some folks would pay $3k for a Bogner and yet refuse to pay over $600 for anything Fender makes. I'd rather have ONE good dual-speaker tube amp that I can use for clean and run my pedals through, then have a mixture of high-mid-low end guitars. I wouldn't pay $3k for a Gretsch White Falcon when I can get an Arbor copy for $299; on the flip side, I would rather pay good money for a higher end dual-humbucker guitar than buy an Agile copy (I'd take a P90 Agile, though. See?). To each his own.

[petemoore]

Finding the balance that's right for you.
 remem, Elvis recorded with a 4 trax Ampex.
 Just so I don't also sound confusedelled: Here's my take on it...
 Tube amp. Worthless by itself, still for a guitar player [expecially one that likes DIY Stompboxes], I can solidly recommend going the Tube route. I think there's more to it than: "it works for me in my opinion". Starting off with one of these that works is a good thing to do, tube amps are a learning exp in themselves.  Breaking it down further, all tube amps distort differently Ie there are Wide ranges of tones from different tube setups...I like to say there are two distinct types [just because there are more and it gets all convolutedly complicated] ...Cleaner  and   Dirtier. By dirtier I mean 'regular' dirt, not the kind that is intended to be created in one pre-amp tube ie master volume [just because I'm not a big fan and might not really understand them] no I would recommend opting for the 'regular' tube amp..the sought after high gain ones that distort reall nice don't tend to go on sale [as much] as regular tame sounding ones.
 Something like SLP is such huge fun I'm tempted..I would recommend something smaller for clubbin'...50w.
 I have three tubers that I love equally, but in different ways.
 The first and most used is the Dynakit ST70...clean and bouncy [sorta like a JTM45] these type amps are hiding for cheep sometimes in lambs clothing...Heathkits are supercool too. these type amps are luschious for the softer side of tubing and are designed as such: Class A [often minsomered as some kind of 1-10 rating system "Class A" is a 'type of amp design...they try to mimic the input waveform at the output precisely...therefor the distortion may be of different [softer edged] type than used in harder rock bands.
 The second is the types with transistor rectifiers, and a little hot-roddedness throughout the amp. Like my MkII 50w V-R [I LIKe new pots, caps, jacks, switches, tubes], ..ie I like new amps, especially Vintage-Reissues, uh IMO they had amps figured out just fine 'then'...adding on garbage often does just that.
 Limiting the # of switches jacks knobs tubes etc has it's advantages, especially in the long run...each one less of this kind of stuff is one less thing to go wrong.
 So getting two tube amps...a DSL starts making sense here though.
 Application is everything. Having two separate amps [JTM45 'type' and MkII Type] one for crunching out rock songs and another for just sweet amping/interesting distortions might be recommendable.
 OOps ... well ... it gets to be a complicated subject...I wouldn't want to go forever without the softer side of tubes [class A amplification] which have endeared me over the years.   However Class A [will not?] unless I've missed something will not heavy rock distort like a somewhat hotrodded EL34 setup. Both type amps have very strong points and limitations...

[ryanscissorhands]

First off, I'm no expert. I'm just, uhh, "opinionated."

Electronics DO break down. Even though after a point you're just paying for a name, every company out there must live up to that name, too. If Obscure Company X puts out a crappy amp, then no big deal, they didn't sell anything to begin with. But if Fender makes a crappy amp, it hits the guitar magazines, and then it's bad. Those in the spotlight sweat the most.

As for me, I know that my next amp is going to have 2 12's in it, because I can't afford a big cabinet. BUT, the main thing is that in between the speakers at the top (in the "butt-groove) I'm going to install a tweeter, and run a bypass switch to it. When it's on, it sounds very VERY much like an acoustic amp. Beautiful acoustic tone. Turn it off, and you can pound out your usual overdriven stuff. Do both at the same time, and you can BLOW THE TWEETER! I'm so excited.

If you do any acoustic stuff, I highly recommend the "acoustic" mod. My next amp is going to be a Behringer V-TONE GMX212. Powerful enough for what I play, and with the mod, it'll do the spectrum.

Hope that helps.

[Hal]

I totally agree with Mike B....and think i exemplefy his case.  I have a tube amp, $350 sounds great.  I have a $550 guitar...and another couple hundred $'s of efx and cables and stuff....

I just joined a band, and the other guitarist has 4 guitars - including a double neck, gibson SG, and epi standard flying V....and a marshall stack.  And it pisses me off....that i get better tone than him.

Get what sound right to you.  Play around a lot.  And don't overkill....

[GuitarLord5000]

My Story:

I recently went to my local C&M Music store looking for an acoustic guitar.  My only guidelines were that the guitar sound good and costs less than $500.  I decided to play all of the acoustic guitars without looking at price tags and names.  Pick the top 10 best sounding guitars and look at the price tags.  Whichever was within my price range (hopefully at least ONE would be), would be the guitar I brought home with me.
SO....I play all the acoustic guitars in the shop.  I decide that there are only two of them which I really liked the sound of.  One of them looks like an average ordinary acoustic guitar, and the other looks so beautiful it makes my eyes hurt.  I flip the tags over and BLAMMO!  One of 'em goes for $1300!  And its the AVERAGE looking one!  Feeling sick, I flip the other's tag over.  Amazingly, the guitar listed for $480!  After the "i know what this guitar is really worth" discount, I got the case AND guitar for $475 after tax!  FYI, the average looking guitar was a Takemine (unsure which model), and the one I left with was a Dean Exotica Flame maple.  Just goes to show ya that in the music biz, a lot of what you pay for is name recognition.  I mean, Marshall has been putting out crappy amps for YEARS, but people keep on buying them because they are MARSHALLS!  But if you plug into a few of them and play them without knowing the name, you'll find there are MUCH cheaper amps out there that sound better to the ear.  I've got a Peavey Classic with four 10's in it that surpassed most other amps in sound.  Got it for 100 bucks in a pawn shop.  Havent regretted that purchase yet.

                    Dave,
                        Thrifty Shopper Supremo
                        Known as Tight Wad in some circles

[bwanasonic]

One factor is resale value. The cheaper amp might cost you if decide to sell it. The Bogner might even make you money if you get a deal. I agonized over this topic a few years back, and ended up splitting the difference between my initial *working man's* price range and the upper boutique range. Sometimes though, you just have to let the force take over, and go by gut on what will get *your sound*. Or by what matches your outfit.

Kerry M

[ErikMiller]

Ah....how much should I spend?

I figure it the same way I figure everything else that varies widely in price, like clothes, automobiles, housing, food.

Is there an amp (car, home, meal, shirt) I HAVE to have in order to be satisfied? Used to be the answer to that one was "yes," and it was a Mesa/Boogie Mark series from II forward.

Could be a set of features. Tube, master volume, wattage, high gain front end, etc.

To this day, I prefer a Fender Bandmaster-type 2-12 cabinet, so "sealed 2-12" is a must-have feature.

If you are looking for THE AMP, the last one you'll need to buy, get nothing less than one that you think will not make you wish you had a better one.

I, for one, do not believe that quality and price are always proportional. I have a Peavey Foundation bass that I bought used for $150 about 16 years ago, and since then I have yet to see or play a bass I wanted more.

Companies do charge for their name and reputation. Sometimes, their name/reputation is not worth all that.

I have a sense of frugality that must also be satisfied when I shop for something. I can't be happy feeling that I've paid too much for what I got.

[Arno van der Heijden]

Another tip:

Don't buy a new amp/pedal/guitar, but rather look for a second-hander in good condition (Although you should be a bit more careful with guitars IMHO).

It might take you some time to find what you're looking for, but most of the time it's a much better price/quality ratio.

[Aharon]

People should go and test guitars,amps(anything)blindfolded.There's a lot of pressure to go with the names because that's what you see in the videos and magazines.
Hey remember Eddy's mongrel guitar?
Aharon

[BDuguay]

First let me say, what a great post! I often think I'm giving Eric Johnson a run for his money in the finnicky department. I own a 64 Epi Casino, a 59 Grestch 6119, and a custom made Tele. I will openly admit that I've played a number of Japanese knock-offs and lesser known guitars that are superior to some of the vintage guitars I've played. Except mine of course :wink: ... But I chose the ones I have because they play well and they have that "vibe" that I don't get with the others. That is important to me.
As for amps, I own 2 vintage AC30's and a Retrodyne, see it here at /  www.retrodyne-amps.com. Again, some might think it too much but for me, they have the vibe and the sound that I want.
Just my 2cdn. cents.
Brian

[Doug H]

Something else to consider- If you have to choose between spending $$ on a nice amp vs. a nice guitar, put the $$ into the amp first. A nice amp can make a less-than-nice guitar sound pretty decent. Whereas, most of the time, a decent guitar through a crappy amp will still sound crappy.

Doug

[petemoore]

First off, like above post, New item...add about 1/3 [or 1/2?] to the price.
 I personally don't go for really old, beat amps. I kind of like newer ones, fresher the better IMO.
 Marshall responded to the mass market make a buk competition thing like all the other big boys did. Sort of an inevaitibility. You can printout a transistor amp for wayy cheep and stick it in a case and sell it for more profit/easier than with a tube job with it's labor intensiveness costs or production. I, fortunately got a big Marshall early on, so never bought into that stuff. Always saw it as it was and is IMO...lesser [if in weight and price only].
 They still make the cool vintage reissues, but they tend to be farther back in the music stores...or not at all...hafta order ya one in...
 If you get a Med. sized [signal path] tube amp, [30-50w] and nice 2x12''s that gets a good hard rock sound with some boxes, you have my assurance you will not be dissatisfied. It must be killer though. It will have to survive A/B comparisons, or be in a league of it's own. If something is percieved to be 'better', that is what you will want. Your desire for the 'percieved as lesser' item will become greatly diminished.
You need something that will be 'comparable' at least with the best.
 ...Fender Bassman, Fender Super Reverb, Dual Showman, Bandmaster, this is the 'kind of stuff I'm talking about...Heathkit, Dynakit, Mcintosh, you love excellent hand wound transformers, you'll notice much smaller frequency dropouts if there are no overlaps in the windings. There are others...and many of the Fenders mentioned should be tested...see if you can get yourself where a pre CBS and a nice Fender [same type amp] are...I did this with two Twins...very educational...the knobs work very right on the 'real' fender, and the sound is superb/comparable with the very finest my dog could possibly have...'comparing' it that CBS thing? [no comparison]...no comment...OK CBS=POC.
 There's no reason in the world you should not have a stellar sound. You know what to go for. Reverb is so nice to have on a tube amp, it can be hard to find the deal on the amp with all the features...etc.
 I can say having a pile sitting in wait for the rare deal that pops up, and the ability to stave off immediate gratification can get alot of extra tube amp mileage. Having two is sometimes recommended.
 The more you think objectively about it and shop around, the more certain you'll be about the deal that shouldn't have and didn't get passed over.

[Mark Hammer]

How much is my tone worth?   Well, what's the "best degree"? or the best school?  How pretty should your wife/girlfriend be?  How smart should your kids be?  How much should your car stereo cost?  How early should you retire?

All tough questions with no right answer.

So let's ask some different questions that are perhaps a little more answerable.

What do players want from their gear?  They want a lot of things, depending on their status vis-a-vis music (e.g., steady/intermittent gigging, learning, tinkering, posing, etc.).  But here are some dimensions worth considering, each of which will have a different weight depending on what I just noted:

1) They want reliability and durability.  If it did something you like, or if it did something you needed it to do, on  Monday, then it better be able to do it on Tuesday and Tuesday 2 years from now.  People are willing to spend more money if it means not havng to say "Just a sec, it was working fine last week/practice", if it means that you never have perform any miracles to make it work as desired.  Certainly part of that has nothing to do with tone per se, but some of it does.  For instance, pots with the sort of tapers and control range that permit you to nail the setting you want, or replicate it, are an aspect of reliability AND an aspect of tone.

2) They want challenge and stretching.  Challenge is not just about making things difficult, but also about making some things easier, particularly taking on new activities, or thinking in new ways, developing new skills, etc.  If your gear encourages you to think about tone and THEN about phrasing and THEN about arrangements and song structure, then it has done you a favour and that may be worth more.  Of course, sometimes it works the opposite in that things which severely restrict your options or place real obstacles towards doing some things easily can stretch you and bring out your creative side in a different way.  Pick up a 12-string and many of the wanking tricks you default to on a "normal rock guitar" just won't work because of what the resistance of a 12-string does to your left-hand.  But that's a *good* thing because it forces you to think about what you CAN do with that tone pallette.  By analogy, you can walk into any art store and buy a pre-formed, pre-gessoed canvas of a pre-defined size.  When you think of it, having 12" x 18" and maybe three tubes of paint is pretty limiting, and not too different from having a Squier student pak with an ersatz Strat, cheap vinyl strap and a tiny practice amp with a 6" speaker.  Apply yourself and you can bend either set of materials to your will.  Yes, you can't fill a stadium with a 6" speaker and power chords can sound pretty wimpy, and a 12 x 18 canvas doesn't really do the same thing as an 8ft x 12ft panoramic Dali or Gainsborough...but who said that's what you had to aim for?

3) Musicians want ease of use.  This is sort of related to the first two but is also dissociable from them.  If you can actually DO it, without having to put your inspiration on hold, it's worth more to you.  If you can reach that note, if you can BE that loud, if you can get past the hurdles quickly, if you can be tired and still do it, if you can still find the strength to run through the song one more time, if you don't have to look in the frickin manual...again, then it's worth more.

4) Musicians want legitimacy.  This is a funny one.  Sometimes, it's legitimacy in your own eyes.  When someone trades in their pawnshop Les Paul knockoff for a *real* one, it is a sign they have taken a step towards commitment to music.  Graduating from gear which can sometimes do what you want, to gear which costs more but will always do what you want is a sign to oneself of taking music seriously, a sign to other musicians that you are committed (sometimes a sign to your partner that you OUGHT to be committed! :lol: ), and a sign to an audience that you have a commitment towards dependably providing them what they pay money for.  That's not tone per se either, but it leads one to want to search for tone, and leads others to expect it from you.

A book I reviewed for a journal a couple years ago (http://www.innovation.cc/book-reviews/beyond-workfamily-balance.pdf) made the point that overwork in organizations could be easily traced to what it was the organization thought of when it thought of indicators of competence and commitment.  If long hours were seen as an indication of commitment, then people would end up putting in longer hours to show their commitment.  If pulling an iron out of the fire were seen as a sign of competence, then employees would take on tasks that seemed impossible, or make it known when they had gotten soemthing done by the skin of their teeth.  

In an analogous way, pop musicians (though I prefer Miles Davis' term of "social music") demonstrate their commitment and competence via the equipment they use.  Sometimes that is demonstrated by having the latest and greatest, and amongst some groups it is demonstrated by having the weirdest and wackiest, or the oldest and moldiest.  Either way, it is the symbolic value of what you use that establishes you.  Of course, as the authors of the book I reviewed point out, rabid pursuit of the symbols of commitment and competence to the complete disregard of what they are symbols of and how they came to be that way can get you in a heap of trouble.  So having the weirdest and wackiest or oldest and moldiest without being able to be sparked into new terrain, or without having the consistency one desires, is simply wasting money.  Buying yourself every tube of colour in the art store or every bell and whistle doesn't really tackle #2 or #3 above very well.  You can get lost at the choicepoint.  So much so that having less would probably elicit greater creativity, more output and productivity, and more satisfaction from generate  creative output despite limitations.

Like I say, there are probably other dimensions to consider, but these would be the biggies in my view.

Personally, I have a pile of stuff, most of which I don't need, and either just can't get off my arse to sell or am too sentimental about to sell.  I think I could probably do everything I want for under $800 total, including axe, amp, pedals, the works.

[Paul Marossy]

I have had good success with very modest equipment.  I haven't spent more than $800 for any amp or guitar that I own, and I can get some really good tones out of what I have. I have long believed that a musician with a good ear can make rather mediocre equipment sound pretty good, within reason. The other thing that I like about NOT owning a $3500 PRS or McInturff or ______, is that if it were to get ripped off, it is not as devasting financially or psychologically. There are a lot of good guitars around $1000 or less out there, IMO.

There is good and bad ones in every bunch. Even the expensive ones. This can be really apparent with acoustic guitars. I have played very expensive Martins that just sounded kind of dead and then I picked up a $1200 Taylor or similar guitar and it sounded ten times better. Price is not necessarily an indicator of tonal quality. I still say that one of the best sounding amps I have heard is my '74 Fender Twin Reverb which I traded a 6-string bass for. But another amp of the same make and model might sound like doo doo. Amps and instruments are just as one-of-a-kind as people are.  

People get way too caught up in brand names. A $15,000 Mill Hill amp with silver wiring isn't going to sound that different than a $1000 amp of similar topology. I think half of it is perception. Oh, it's a ______, therefore it sounds great! Just not true. I'm not into buying names, just good tone. Sometimes they go hand-in-hand and sometimes they don't.

[jimbob]

I had this same delimma for years- i came to the conclusion that it really didnt matter what i had if i SUCKED. NO matter how much the guitar was or amp/ effects no one wanted to hear someone who sucked. I decided id earn mine based on my playing ablility and need 1st. Im sure hendrix's 1st guitar wasnt $$$ or even SRV's. Im more impresed by players who concentrate on skill than equiptmnt. Unles you have cash to blow just get what sounds good in your price range. I think those players with the best equipmnt on advertizemnts are cause there free to them. Im almost certain of this. Some of the best players ive ever known were REAL cheap asses after years of crappy living-chasing the dream.
---but than i could just be talking out my ass cause i cant afford the ones i really want...i dont know--good luck!

[Lonehdrider]

Good topic... I'll give a few opinions..

1) Whats your style? Metal, Blues, Jazz, each have a different perspective and tonally each style lends itself to certain circuits. Metal? Ok, lots of power, solid state no problem. Jazz, lots of headroom (Think roland chorus 100) and clean tones that don't color that expensive jazzbox. Blues, well, it runs a gamat (ok, big surprise I'm a blues player), but essentially saturated tube sound at moderate volume that cleans up when turned down a bit.

2) Is it my sound, or am I trying to cop a sound? No flames here, but find your voice, what does it for you, what makes you play at and above your ability because your happy with your sound? Don't get hung up in all the hype, plug it in and listen. If a 200.00 amp rocks your boat buy it, yeah the more expensive amps sound better in some cases, in other cases they do one thing great, but perhaps thats all. I heard a guy playing through a Koch amp at jam, awesome clean sound with a strat, truely a great blues tone ( a clapton, or buddy guy tone, nice and clean but has some bite to it), the other two channels (for this type of music) were less than great. The point? The little blues jr at only 15 watts owned by the hosting band had a equally awesome tone for a 1/6 or 1/7th of the cost and actually had a better saturated tone because you could turn it up, the other was WAY loud and for the venues here was unusable from a natural saturated tube distortion standpoint.

3) Do I gig? Is it something I can lug around, and play, its reliable and not a show piece, does it do the job where I want to play it? If you have the bread to buy boutique, and its not a working musicians amp, great, go for it, but think of your hand made point to point wired beauty getting beer spilled on it, or dancers kicking it, or knocking it over, can you deal with that? (and yeah, I get pissed even with my old tube crate when such things happen, but its part of playing clubs, get used to it)

4) Am I at a point in my music where I KNOW what sound I'm looking for and I'll be happy for a good long while with the sound I get now? Taste change, my tone has changed alot over the years, from stacks to rackmount digital, to just a tube combo now, think about that when you dole out those hard earned benji's.. (sure you can trade in later, but you take a beating on the trade-in usually unless its a classic amp of some sort).

5 Lastly, remember tones change room to room, club to club, voltage differences, room dimensions, materials of the room, number of people in the room (yeah they soak up/reflect sound), volume level (will the club owner let me play at 10? I got my crate tube 30 to 10 only once in the club cause it was closing down and it was a blowout jam, sounded fricking awesome, but at 5 or 6 sounds muddy).

Whats it all worth, with the above considerations at least for myself, its worth all I can comfortably afford and still be practical, sure I'd love a real 59 bassman in tweed.. Ain't gonna happen likely. Perhaps a reissue limited if my lawsuit ever pays out  ( :x lawyers!!!!!). Oh well, just a few things to chew on, just opinions to be sure, worth what you paid for them.

Regards,

Lone

Remember, tone is very much like Women, you lust after what you don't have, but once you have it, its often a headache..

[petemoore]

..and not OT
 What do you guys think of these amps that 'do it all'?
 There's something about stacked PCBoards and extreaneous switching/potting that makes me queezie when it comes to thinking of buying one.
 The ones I have read reviews on and one In particular, Made by a Very Famous Manufatcurer..having glitches, that couldn't be remedied, even by switching to the same model but different amp...I'm just not up for all that...I mean when you consider what it's like when one of these old vehicles gets old and breaks down [say a 67 Dodge or Fender]...Imagine when the wave of clunkers hits that HAVE all that garbage on them...anti lock brakes, computered everything, elecytric everything etc.etc.etc] I wouldn't want to be the one to have to deal with all that....New is one thing..but the devalueing IMO will be greater the more extraneous electromechanical devices the unit is dependant on to function properly...KISS princilpe SHould Be Heeded with amps...get away from that and you may require professional help...however they may not be able to help you either...Getting amps fixed is just a plain old drag, well unless of course you can amaze yourself, resemble yourself, and fix it yourself...and get it done super easy!!!