Installing a tube in a non tube pedal

[Mike Nichting]

Hey all,
Is there anyway you could do this in a pedal that might benefit from it??
Say maybe a Phase 45 or a distortion pedal just top warm up the tone??

If this were to be done what would you replace?? Say it was a TS-9 (because it is a well known effect) what would a tube replace??

Just curious :twisted:

Mike N.
NUKLHED

[Paul Marossy]

In a TS circuit, the tube would replace the opamp. A Phase 45 would be a little more difficult. There is a can of worms that gets opened when you try to do something like you propose... not impossible, just some difficulties that would have to be overcome.

Incidentally, the first opamps were tube circuits.  :wink:

[YouAre]

What about a tube blackfire or brown sound?

[Paul Marossy]

Cool idea, but it would would take 2-3 tubes to accomplish that. I think more with the BSIAB...

[petemoore]

Suggestion...
 Build a Tube BF Stage and a transistor Blackfire stage ro drive it, just to get an idea what it's like, would be an interesting experiment.

[puretube]

http://www.geofex.com/FX_images/realtube.jpg

[Paul Marossy]

Yep puretube, that is the only way to get a tube in a stompbox!  :wink:

[YouAre]

Paul, there are 5 transistors in each as you undoubtedly know. Aren't the tranny's the tube-esque mojo that we all love abt those pedals?

[Paul Marossy]

Well, in the case of the BSIAB 1/2, it is the FETs that give it its tube-like characteristics. The blackfire uses NPN transistors, but it also is more of a distortion pedal than an overdrive-ish thing like the BSIAB1/2, IMO. You could get either effect using tubes, if designed well.

[petemoore]

How about dividing each BF stage into Q's and tubes.
 Use a High Gain Low Noise transistor for the emitter followers, and a tube for the gain active in each Blackfire stage?

[YouAre]

What changes would have to be made to the board? I know for one you'd need a crapload more power to get those tubes burning hot.

[zachary vex]

http://www.national.com/rap/vacuumtubes.html

[Mike Nichting]

OK, the answer I was looking for was "the opamp or the Fets".
I just used those pedals as a "model" for what I was asking. I really got to thinking about this the other day and figured I would ask.

Thanks for the replies all~!!

Peace,
Mike N.
NUKLHED

[Peter Snowberg]

Thanks for posting that Zach! .

Somewhere around here I have a complete data sheet with a bunch of app notes.

So now who is going to be the first one to make a Philbrick opamp out of J201s? .... and then put two of them in a tubescreamer topology.

Take care,
-Peter

[R.G.]

Is there anyway you could do this in a pedal that might benefit from it??

The simplest and most efficient way that comes to mind is to take your favorite tube and rub it all over the outside of the pedal, then use something like duct tape to hold it in place on the pedal while you play.  

The results are likely to be just as good as inserting it somehow into the circuit because the complexity of putting a tube into a non-tube circuit is high, and the likely improvements are just about nil. This is a whole lot like a similar question about putting germanium transistors into effects because germanium is good somehow.

Say maybe a Phase 45 or a distortion pedal just top warm up the tone??

And this question is the root of the problem. It's a well-intentioned idea, but a bit too simplistic. Tubes don't necessarily just warm up the tone just because they're there. It's entirely possible to make a 12AX7 clip just as harshly as a silicon opamp clipper.

Just that fact that there's a tube there doesn't help much. You have to be able to diddle the circuit in ways that bring out what's different about vacuum tubes, and by the time you get through with that, just about everything in the circuit has been replaced. It's like the old joke about this here axe once having belonged to George Washington, being the original one that he used to chop down the cherry tree. It's still a working axe, having had three new handles and two new heads.

It is in fact possible to make op amps out of tubes. I did in fact get to use some of those Philbrick tube opamps in a lab back in college in the early 70's. I can tell you from experience - they clip to just as flat a line as silicon. Feedback, especially in large doses, completely covers up any unique device characteristics. In fact, that is what makes it so valuable to industry. The part variations don't matter.

What we do is to look for and value the differences, and how to get the differences.

Perhaps the biggest single advantage tubes have today, the really, trully magic and reliable, measurable effect that they provide is increased sales when they're inserted into musical equipment. They make for great ad copy. I sometimes think that a tube screamer with a tube inside with the filament lit but otherwise not connected would be a dynamite box for the market.

So yes, it's entirely possible. The bigger question is - is it worth while for the effort? That one is hard to answer.

But I'm philosophizing again.

[Paul Marossy]

So now who is going to be the first one to make a Philbrick opamp out of J201s?  .... and then put two of them in a tubescreamer topology?

Uh, gee.... that would take a huge enclosure!  :wink:

I have never seen an actual tube opamp before. That's interesting stuff.

[zachary vex]

Thanks for posting that Zach! .

Somewhere around here I have a complete data sheet with a bunch of app notes...

Take care,
-Peter

sure, Peter, my pleasure.  8^)

[george]

So now who is going to be the first one to make a Philbrick opamp out of J201s?  .... and then put two of them in a tubescreamer topology?

like an EE friend of mine says, tubes are just dual JFETs with pilot lights ...  :wink:

[Paul Marossy]

"like an EE friend of mine says, tubes are just dual JFETs with pilot lights ..."

LOL  :lol:

[Mike Nichting]

Well, we all know that I don't know a damn thing about electronics so leave it to me to mess around with ths idea.
I know it's a waste of time and no good can come from it but I have to give it a shot.
I'm sure I will need some help so is there anyone that I can email when I need some advice?? Anyone that won't be bothered by emails and someone that is interested in this idea I mean??

Thanks Zvex for posting that info as I'm sure it's going to come in very handy sir~!!! Zvex Rocks~!!!

Peace all,
Mike Nichting
NUKLHED